Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Lysabild]

Thing is zombat is mostly right and you sort of miss the point with the Roman Empire as example Phmcw, however, I'm sure I'd almost 100% agree more with your solutions Phmcw, hating and acting bigoted towards immigrants only worsens the situation, understanding and a good mix of assimilation and integration is my personal belief for progress.

Clarification: When I say a mix of, I mean one should as a minimum make sure people are integrated, but also allow people wishing for it to assimilate.

[Dsarker]

"The Romans let anybody who wanted into the nation join, as long as they were willing to assimilate.

Don't spoil the thread with uneducated ramblings. If I wanted to read somebody with no idea what is going on rant and rave, I would read Breivik's manifesto. "

1. Rome didn't allow non romans to be citizens until later in the empire
2. Citizenship had to be earned in the auxiliaries
3. Most historians argue that this marked the decline of rome's social cohesion

Okay, addressing your points

1. But they also didn't wipe everyone out who wasn't a Roman. They allowed those who weren't Roman citizens to live in Roman provinces. Also, if you want a relatively early example, look at St Paul. He's noted to be a Roman citizen. This is, at most, two emperors in.
2. That's a lie. Using the same example, we know that he was not in the auxilliaries. How did he get it? His parents probably just shuffled some cash along.
3. Maybe it did. The empire still lasted for at least three hundred years after it started. In fact, I would argue that it fell because of the Christian influences. If people are more inclined to pacifism and building huge new buildings, you're going to run out of money and soldiers. Combine this with the rampant corruption and the sheer size of the empire, and you're going to face impossible challenges, like going into debt through the sheer size of your army, that you need to be so large because of youe territory.

[Grakelin]

Zombat isn't right at all.

I also live in an area where there are ethnic minorities.

The only people complaining or taking 'sides' are angry individuals who turn to other cultures as the source of their problems. I have stated in other threads before that I look everybody in the eye as I walk past them in the street. I am as white as it gets. Black people, Arabic people, Asian people, and Aboriginal people do not glower at me or act negatively towards me any more than the Caucasians do. I have maybe one or two bad experiences with a stranger of any race every few months. I've observed that the children act the same way no matter how long their father grows their beard, the capacity for intellectualism is the same no matter how dark their skin, and the capacity for being a likable person is the same no matter how much of their childhood was spent in another country.

I've also lived in the Maritimes, where one major city has less than two dozen Asians registered in the census, and Arabs are nowhere to be seen. Instead of hating on other races, which barely exist (except for Aboriginals, who do indeed receive prejudice), bigots turn to other denominations of Christianity to direct their anger.

I won't pretend that non-whites are able to be bigoted and racist, because they certainly can be, and the rate is just as high, but if you're intent on not being a savage barbarian, the best way to do it is to not be a savage barbarian.

[Dsarker]

Wait, do you live in Australia, Grakelin?

[Grakelin]

I live in Canada.

[Blargityblarg]

Grake is Canadian. Aboriginal just means whoever lived there first; it's just used more in the context of Australia than anywhere else.

FE:Ninja.

[Dsarker]

Okay. The only time I've heard people speaking of Aboriginal people has been in Australia.


Anyway, back on topic. Do you have any other answers for Zombat's questioning the Roman citizenhood being extended to others?

[Grakelin]

Yes, but that is not actually 'back on topic', so no.

[Lysabild]

You're missing the point completely, or I read his post completely differently.


I have hanged out in Arabic gangs even though I'm a long haired metal kinda guy and I had bad experiences with this, and if I go the wrong places I feel threatened and they talk very ugly to danish people, even without being provocated. If you tell one to stop harassing you he calls you a racist before he kicks the twice smaller guy.

And I hated muslims for that, for a long time.

So I can understand the racists: However.

Today I know that the problem lies with the ghettoes, the fact that we don't give them a proper chance to integrate and then condemn them, but theres also the fact, living in Denmark with super crazy wonderful welfare, that many DID just come here to take advantage of our hospitality, and this have hurted the reputation of the good people who came here to work and live.

I lost my point in my head because I was doing two things at the same time, I'll say I propably misunderstood him and avoid some discussion on this.

[Grakelin]

You use the word 'hospitality'. Immigrants rarely move to other countries to be considered guests. If I moved to Denmark today, got a job, and applied for a citizenship, I would technically be as entitled to your nation's resources and services as you are because I would then become a taxpayer.

When I was in high school, I never got the chance to hang around with any 'ethnic gangs'. Yet, the white kids who were impoverished and selling drugs were still scary to everybody else. And the packs of youth who swarmed the elderly in Halifax five or six years ago were white kids from a poor neighborhood as well.

Yet, I neither hate white people nor poor people. Why is that?

[Lysabild]

Doesn't work like that here, with the amount of services a welfare state provides letting people in like that would ruin us in no time, as has been proven. Many (Primarily Muslim) mothers come here with a ton of children and gets paid by the state for doing nothing at all, and they know that, that is why they choose Denmark, to get free money for not working. It is a major issue in Denmark since our state weren't prepared for a big influx of people coming to take advantage of our system of sharing the load.

And that you have a good mind does not make everyone good natured by birth. I saw a problem, and instead of, as a 16 year old kid, seeing the trouble that caused it, I only saw the problem caused, and then I saw what connected these people, who were both pakistani, iraqi, egyptian, bosnian, albanian and so much else, and it was Islam.

Today I know much better how silly it was, but at the same time, it wasn't strange, because we aren't taught the problem, we just experience crime and violence from them and then hate them.

But you can't compare Canada and Denmark very well, Denmark has consisted of a very homogenic(?) culture for 1000 years, Canada is made of immigrants through 300 years.

Bah I'm not making any sense it's late and English doesn't work for me today. I concede, I can't word myself well enough to discuss this moment.

[Grakelin]

Did you just tell me that going to your country and getting a job is not the ideal way for things to work?

I'm going to have to ask you to start providing documentation indicating both that Denmark is beginning to fall apart and that the majority of immigrants to Denmark are Muslims at this point, because a reasoned discussion where both of us are able to relate our opinions honestly and without emotional bias is out of reach.

Also, if you are 'conceding', don't keep coming back. Using the phrase "It is very late, and I don't want to discuss it any more because I am tired, so let's leave it at that" would work fine if we were talking face to face over a cup of tea. Unfortunately, we're on an online forum, so concluding each statement with "Let's not talk about this anymore" without actually backing out is a futile exercise in getting the last word and silencing those who disagree with you. This will still be here when you wake up in the morning. Others will have added to it.

[Lysabild]

Did you just tell me that going to your country and getting a job is not the ideal way for things to work?

I didn't, I said the times you're not working, you're still paid a lot of money and get almost everything paid for you by the state, which is easy to take advantage of, which is a thing people do, especially immigrants used to, and Danes are catching on too because "If they do it, why shouldn't we?" It weren't a problem before we opened the borders in.. Was it the 80ies? though.

I'm going to have to ask you to start providing documentation indicating both that Denmark is beginning to fall apart and that the majority of immigrants to Denmark are Muslims at this point, because a reasoned discussion where both of us are able to relate our opinions honestly and without emotional bias is out of reach.

I never said the majority was, I said the majority of problems are with muslims. I also didn't say Denmark was falling apart, but our economic is doing shitty because of a mix of too lenient rules that was made with danes having always lived here in mind and the crisis of course didn't help.

Also, if you are 'conceding', don't keep coming back. Using the phrase "It is very late, and I don't want to discuss it any more because I am tired, so let's leave it at that" would work fine if we were talking face to face over a cup of tea. Unfortunately, we're on an online forum, so concluding each statement with "Let's not talk about this anymore" without actually backing out is a futile exercise in getting the last word and silencing those who disagree with you. This will still be here when you wake up in the morning. Others will have added to it.

It's hard not to, because you keep assuming I've said something I haven't.

[Grakelin]

So please, provide documentation indicating that Muslims are the cause of the majority of problems in Denmark.

Otherwise, I will refer back to "people turning to ethnic minorities as scapegoats".

[TonyI]

Well, I am an Arab Catholic (said it before) and while I stand up for Muslims I can't say I agree with Denmark's Laws, to have a happy society people must integrate and assimilate. If someone criticizes you for being a Welfare leach they can't be and shouldn't be considered racist. So I believe there must be firmer action towards (any)immigrants in any (any)countries. Not treat them like aliens, but firmly stand by integration. The problem I see mostly is that in places like Denmark or Norway or whatever that they're anti-Islam, calling Islam a bad religion and cult and whatnot, but not tackling the issue of poor immigration laws. You see it isn't Islam, just not trying hard enough for the cause of integration.