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[Trappin]

The speculation is that he doesn't give a damn about what people think of what he did, and he instead thinks he suceeded in taking out a generation of future left wing leaders.

Are youth oriented political education camps a common practice in Norway or are mom and dad just trying to get rid of the kids for a few weeks?

[Servant Corps]

I think you misinterpreted my distinction between a militant group and a terrorist group, as well. The terrorist group deliberately attacks civilians, and not military targets. This distinction is why groups like the French Resistance and (in popular fiction) the Rebel Alliance aren't typically villified by our society.

And I don't view that distinction as necessary. Military units can be terrorized. For example, the USS Cole attack was against a military target (USS Cole), yet it is usually considered a terrorist attack and the perpetrators have been vilified by our society. It would seem far more useful to instead classify attacks as being "terrorist" in nature, based on whether their actions seek to terrorize the population (and by terrorize, I mean "cause fear").

Also militant groups can engage in terrorism. Terrorism and militancy need not be exclusive.

So you think the people in Myanmar and Sri Lanka who abused their civilians were following the teachings of Buddhism?

They say they are. And I don't like "No True Scotsman" arguments, so I'm perfectly willing to trust them.

[nenjin]

We have Christian bible camps here in the US. I've been sent to more than one in my childhood. Are those just harmless, positive weekend activities for kids with a strong moral component, or grooming the next generation of white, wealthy Christian leaders?

[Grakelin]

White, Blonde Male with Political Agenda Destroys Building: My God, crazy people just... they just don't need any reason to be crazy, do they? I mean, they'll just latch onto any political idea in their thirst for blood!

Do we really need to point out the difference between a terrorist whose own party rejects their actions, versus a member of a world-wide organization with the stated goal of killing anyone who they disagree with? You'd have to provide evidence this guy was part of a larger movement with political goals and organizational backing before you go equating what he did to what Radical Muslims who are part of cells and organized resistance movements do. Some people ARE just crazy, and back up their crazy with pseudo-political beliefs. Some people hold pseudo-political beliefs, and back them up with a whole lot of crazy action.

Either way, I don't think this is a case of skin color, religious or political white-washing. Loughner is certifiable and acted alone. Again, if there were some publicly known, world-wide organization of white people who were well-financed, highly organized and hell bent on blowing up civilians of all nations.....I'd be willing to attribute his attack to something else other than a serious case of the crazies.

As it is, there's no evidence of that, so why SHOULD we put him on the level of an Al-Qaeda operative with political motivations we at least understand, or a very angry Muslim with a government that has a hostile foreign government on their soil? Every once in a while, some crazy person does pull off a highly successful attack. I believe this is one of those.

So the Muslims aren't crazy because other Muslims agree with them? What about the allegation that he was assisted by another party, who filmed the event? Were they crazies together? What about the right-wing website which stored his writings for him? Not really organized and suggestive, but all crazies together?

I think you misinterpreted my distinction between a militant group and a terrorist group, as well. The terrorist group deliberately attacks civilians, and not military targets. This distinction is why groups like the French Resistance and (in popular fiction) the Rebel Alliance aren't typically villified by our society.

And I don't view that distinction as necessary. Military units can be terrorized. For example, the USS Cole attack was against a military target (USS Cole), yet it is usually considered a terrorist attack and the perpetrators have been vilified by our society. It would seem far more useful to instead classify attacks as being "terrorist" in nature, based on whether their actions seek to terrorize the population (and by terrorize, I mean "cause fear").

Also militant groups can engage in terrorism. Terrorism and militancy need not be exclusive.

Not a terrorist attack? Remember, Uday Hussein was a complete dick if even half the things attributed to him are true, a killer with little regard for the lives of others. But terrorism is wrong, and even military personnel can be terrorized. So now we get into a moral struggle of whether it was the right thing to do to go attack his house and get him.

So you think the people in Myanmar and Sri Lanka who abused their civilians were following the teachings of Buddhism?

They say they are. And I don't like "No True Scotsman" arguments, so I'm perfectly willing to trust them.

Sure, but you then have to disagree with the people here who say the terrorist the thread is dedicated to isn't really following the word of Christ, despite what he says.

[olemars]

The speculation is that he doesn't give a damn about what people think of what he did, and he instead thinks he suceeded in taking out a generation of future left wing leaders.

Are youth oriented political education camps a common practice in Norway or are mom and dad just trying to get rid of the kids for a few weeks?

It's the annual convention for AUF - the labour party's youth organization. It's pretty much just a weekend booze-up with some speeches. Don't the Young Democrats and Young Republicans have stuff like that?

[Grakelin]

We have them for Canadian political parties. You can be a part of "Young Liberals" or "Young Conservatives". The strategy of taking out their camps to eliminate competition is somewhat flawed, however, because one of our "Young Liberals" grew up to be Prime Minister of a Conservative government, squash the Liberals completely, and suck all Liberal influence out of the nation with a straw.

[nenjin]

So the Muslims aren't crazy because other Muslims agree with them? What about the allegation that he was assisted by another party, who filmed the event? Were they crazies together? What about the right-wing website which stored his writings for him? Not really organized and suggestive, but all crazies together?

How about the group of black guys here in the US that were arrested by the FBI with links to terrorist websites...and it turns out they were a bunch of clueless dilettantes?

But to your point: yes, a large enough number of Muslims that you can't just write off a few hundred thousand people as crazy. Just like while the KKK may be largely defunct these days, I don't call them crazy. They're a political organization with violent intentions. If evidence turns up that there's actually a larger group of people with this guy's ideals and they're organizational goals are violent....I'll lump them in right with the Muslim Extremists. But I'm not about to go labeling every attack by every individual or small group as somehow rational given the political situation in the world. I'm American. We have plenty of unhinged people pulling guns on others and then turning them on themselves here. I'm more likely to subscribe to that as my first reaction by experience, and to not turn every shooting and use of explosives into a crypto-fascist conspiracy, despite the fact we have armed militias here that have manifestos that have justified attacking the Federal government.

It's the annual convention for AUF - the labour party's youth organization. It's pretty much just a weekend booze-up with some speeches. Don't the Young Democrats and Young Republicans have stuff like that?

Here this stuff is more centered around college clubs, aka Young Republicans and Young Democrat clubs. They may have social gathering and stuff, but I don't think either party supports Political Getaway Camps for the young. At least not publicly. Religion, on the other hand, is a different story. Plus we have organizations like the Boy Scouts ect...which are pseduo political, pseudo-religious in origin.

[noah22223]

(offensive remarks removed)

[Servant Corps]

Not a terrorist attack? Remember, Uday Hussein was a complete dick if even half the things attributed to him are true, a killer with little regard for the lives of others. But terrorism is wrong, and even military personnel can be terrorized. So now we get into a moral struggle of whether it was the right thing to do to go attack his house and get him.

I'm trying to get what you're saying here. Is this assassination an act of terrorism or not, because it terrorize Uday Hussein? Maybe, maybe not. I'll need to do more information, but I speculate that it was an act of war, intended to remove somebody the US hated, as opposed to actually being terrorism. I am open to being wrong. I didn't really think of the implications of my statements. I apologize on that.

But note that Uday Hussein was also a civilian. He did not appear to have a position in the military, and the only job he seemed to have held was running Babel newspaper. So, because it was an attack that intentionally targeted a civilian, it must meet your definition of terrorism as well (targeting of civilians).

Sure, but you then have to disagree with the people here who say the terrorist the thread is dedicated to isn't really following the word of Christ, despite what he says.

And I'm fine with that. No True Scotsman is a fallacy that needs to constantly be watched out for; we'd be better off listening to and trusting what people actually say, instead of second-guessing them and being a Bulverist.

[ChairmanPoo]

You know, I'm sort of reminded of the guy who did that shooting in Finland a couple of years ago, barring the difference in scale.... is there a lot of underlying social tension of that sort (eg: popularity of far right movements) in the zone at the moment?

[nenjin]

I thought (I do not know) that over there the far right was on the rise because of the EU.

[Hiiri]

You know, I'm sort of reminded of the guy who did that shooting in Finland a couple of years ago, barring the difference in scale.... is there a lot of underlying social tension of that sort (eg: popularity of far right movements) in the zone at the moment?

Yes. (There were two shootings, actually..)

By average we've always been pretty liberal around here (at least on the surface), but in the last 5 years or so the US-like conservatism has been booming (along with it's various side effects.) Our right-wing conservative nationalist party jumped from 4% support to 19% in one term, and the same pattern seems to be going on in the rest of the Europe.

Personally I think it's just because people don't have as much money as before and are afraid.

Edit: Oh yeah, this is apparently a video made by the shooter, if anyone's interested. If it's real, it gives a nice insight into his mind.

Original account and video were already banned by tube. If the link's not working, just google "Knights Templar 2083"

Edit2: Oops, it was already mentioned earlier.

[Vattic]

This is really awful .

He apparently released this movie along with his manifest an hour before the attack, the original upload seems to be deleted but people made copies:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAwp2FnRmsE

As if the video wasn't bad enough the comments... blech. . It feels so wrong to constructively criticise but the video should have been uploaded in 720+ as some of the text is unreadable, unless you want eye strain.

[Dsarker]

I hope I'm not the only one who hopes it was an act of an insane man. I don't want the world to be such that killing a group of innocent civilians deliberately is the act of a sane, reasonable person.

[EmperorNuthulu]

He apparently released this movie along with his manifest an hour before the attack, the original upload seems to be deleted but people made copies:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAwp2FnRmsE

 This is why I shouldn't read youtube comments........