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[Man In Zero G]

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The great thing about nutritional science is that every few years they completely reverse their recommendations as to what is and isn't healthy. Research is ongoing, and initial findings are often proved wrong later.
I appreciate your concern, Graebeard, but you are still overreacting a little. You act as though it's a foregone conclusion that Toady is destroying himself, but even in the sources you cite, at best they say that it's a risk factor for the various health issues, not a cause in and of itself, and concede that there are other contributing factors that can affect the risk for the positive or the negative. The fact is, it has nothing to do with soda, it has to do with fructose - fructose isn't as "healthy" as glucose, but it comes down to the percentage of your total caloric intake that fructose makes up that determines the health risk. Oh, yeah, and fructose is in everything that has sugar in it if you live in the US like Toady.... So if the risk was really so terrible, we'd all be a lot worse off over here. Research is great, but when it doesn't support the obvious, personal experience and observations of the actual world at work around one, it's hard to take as absolute truth so passionately as you do. (Linking an article stating that orange juice can be worse for you than soda doesn't help with the convincing either....) It's still ongoing research, it's not conclusive. And Toady is, as he stated in the article, entirely aware.

Besides, you keep quoting me and going off about soda, and honestly, all I said was people didn't pay attention to what the article said, and are over-reacting and intrusive on other issues - I barely mentioned his soda intake at all. You brought it up, you beat me over the head with it, so yeah. Calm down.

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(I was extremely confused by your post until I realized you were exaggerating, and overeacting to the overeactions. It's alright, as there's nothing extreme or corrupted about these things, and we'll talk it out pretty much regardless.)
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Yeah, sarcasm doesn't translate well over text and I have a hard time remembering that when writing "passionately". And again, the complaint was not so much the discussion, but rather that facts in the article were being ignored in pretty much the entire discussion.

[KaelGotDwarves]

Well, it's not just that Toady is drinking a lot of soda, it's the admission that he goes without drinking water for months on end.

Water is sort of necessary to live healthily. Just a little. Us being carbon based lifeforms and all.

It's true that you get water in various sources including a bit from soda, but that's not quite the amount that is recommended- not to mention that combining the longterms effects of lack of exercise, proper nutrition, improper sleeping habits, and everything else leads to dramatically shorter life span and other healthrisks, can't really blame the fans for for worrying and wanting Toady to live long enough to see these his plans through

[Graebeard]

Hey, you can believe what you want and characterize my arguments however you like.  I think the scientific evidence undermines your opinion, but hey, that's just, like, your opinion, man.  I'm happy as long as the facts are out there.

Nivm is probably right, and we're each overreacting to each others' overreactions.  I'm sorry if I came off as heavy handed, but several of your posts struck me as rude, insulting, and missing the point.  I think we can all agree that there are better uses for this thread than sniping at each other, so I'll let this drop.

In other news, I had a crazy first today.  Today was the first time I brought up Dwarf Fortress in casual conversation with someone I hadn't already introduced to the game where they actually knew what I was talking about.  Turns out they read this article.

[Taricus]

Actually, He's getting enough sleep. Being nocturnal just limits the time that one can "function" with society.

[Neonivek]

The great thing about nutritional science is that every few years they completely reverse their recommendations as to what is and isn't healthy. Research is ongoing, and initial findings are often proved wrong later.

You mean like eggs?

I have a joke

Man: "Are eggs healthy?"
Woman: "It depends on the time of the month"

Wow... there is unfortunate subtext I didn't mean there.

Right now the big new evil of nutrician of the "foods we think are safe" is currently Milk I believe.

[SirPenguin]

Water is sort of necessary to live healthily. Just a little. Us being carbon based lifeforms and all.

Then explain to me why drinking something that is carbonated is bad for you. Naturally, I'll take that as a concession of defeat.

Anyways, very awesome article. I'm glad it was made, though I wish the guy was a bit more tactful about Tarn's home life. I understand he lives a very unusual livestyle, but the level of detail he went in made it seem like he was going for shock value, and little else.

Oh, and I'd highly recommend skipping the podcast that Toady posted about on the devlog. The podcast itself is absolutely awful (bad format, bad hosts, bad content), but the "interview" was even worse. Blind leading the blind and all that.

[Neonivek]

Then explain to me why drinking something that is carbonated is bad for you

Isn't it because the Carbon dioxide mixes with something else and becomes carbanic acid or something?

[Nivim]

 You stomach is full of acid and the carbonic acid is completely overwhelmed; that particular part has been well researched and shown to be a negligable element in the equation. I always expected(almost baselss theory, here) it was the carbonation itself; you might breath it out, but not fast enough to keep other processes from using other methods to get rid of it.

Being nocturnal just limits the time that one can "function" with society.

Spoiler: Edit: this is off topic. (click to show/hide)

 Out of the people on this forum whose work schedule I know, only slightly more than half of them work during the day, while the rest work during the night or stagger day and night, for various reasons. With electric lights and more primarily indoor jobs, which hours out of every 24 hours the average person (that nonexistant person that's the average of all people) sleeps and works becomes less important, and thus being nocturnal less and less of a limiting factor. I have an odd feeling it will reach equilibrium in a century or so where the only people who work during the day are those who need the light. This will be partly because by that time the major cities will be building down into the mining operations that have been dug already, and the surface will be mostly air vents and farms.

Oh, and I'd highly recommend skipping the podcast that Toady posted about on the devlog. The podcast itself is absolutely awful (bad format, bad hosts, bad content), but the "interview" was even worse. Blind leading the blind and all that.

Yeah, I listened to the first two minutes or so after the annoying music. I didn't know anyone was that bad at having a conversation. I usually crank up my speech centers before talking to a lot people, but they seemed like they had turned off most of their brains.

[G-Flex]

The fact is, it has nothing to do with soda, it has to do with fructose - fructose isn't as "healthy" as glucose, but it comes down to the percentage of your total caloric intake that fructose makes up that determines the health risk. Oh, yeah, and fructose is in everything that has sugar in it if you live in the US like Toady....

Are you aware that high-fructose corn syrup generally has exactly as much fructose as table sugar does?

Not that I'm a fan of HFCS, but it does not usually contain more fructose than other sources of sugar. In fact, fruits probably tend to have more.

So if the risk was really so terrible, we'd all be a lot worse off over here.

Worse? In the US, obesity is a freaking epidemic. It doesn't take much to realize how terrible things are "over here". Obesity is a huge problem, diabetes is a huge problem, and I have no idea what makes you think otherwise.

 Research is great, but when it doesn't support the obvious, personal experience and observations of the actual world at work around one, it's hard to take as absolute truth so passionately as you do. (Linking an article stating that orange juice can be worse for you than soda doesn't help with the convincing either....) It's still ongoing research, it's not conclusive. And Toady is, as he stated in the article, entirely aware.


I'm not about to harp on the guy for it, but no, drinking a bunch of caffeinated soda every day and little water is not a good thing. It's clear he's dependent on it, which is bad, ingesting that much of your calories in simple carbs isn't healthy, and he doesn't seem to have the best diet either. This is not to say it's any of our business, really, but I think it's a bit silly to dispute the claim that drinking that much caffeinated soda every day and little else is not a bad thing, especially when the person admits that he's dependent on it and can't function well without it. Yeah, there are plenty of other factors involved in anybody's health, but when something is that extreme and the person specifically says they're physically dependent enough that they can't function without it, then that obviously is a problematic factor in itself.

Water is sort of necessary to live healthily. Just a little. Us being carbon based lifeforms and all.

Then explain to me why drinking something that is carbonated is bad for you. Naturally, I'll take that as a concession of defeat.

That doesn't make any sense at all. "We're carbon-based" is not a reason for carbonation to be good or even neutral. By that logic, all organic compounds should be safe to ingest. This is very far from true.

Carbonation itself isn't really the big problem with soda, anyway. It acidifies the drink somewhat, but usually there are other acid sources in it anyway (I'm honestly not sure how much the CO2 contributes, but I don't think it's much). The problem with soda is that you're drinking caffeinated candy; it's nothing but sugar (HFCS virtually all the time in the US) and caffeine, and some flavoring/coloring.



I like the article, myself. It's a nice glimpse into his life/world and how he functions, which isn't something we get often except for what he's said himself. Also, I had no idea Scamps is part Maine Coon... it's probably harder to tell without the tail, but that's a pretty fun/crazy breed of cat.

[Neonivek]

That doesn't make any sense at all

In comic books Magneto has the ability to suck the iron out of a person's bloodstream.

In Star Trek they said the same thing about a magnetic coupler

So obvious this makes sense to someone.

[KaelGotDwarves]

Water is sort of necessary to live healthily. Just a little. Us being carbon based lifeforms and all.

Then explain to me why drinking something that is carbonated is bad for you. Naturally, I'll take that as a concession of defeat.

This entire thread we had awhile back. It has nothing to do with carbonation, but rather the fact that human beings require water to synthesize the energy molecules necessary to sustain life.

Although it's just a small thing in a handful of other lifestyle choices, chances are if you're drinking nothing but soda (caffeine, sugar, acid, and other chemicals) for months/years on end, you're probably low energy, unhealthy, and adding to your unhealthiness, not to mention fat and no lack of a dearth of other health problems.

Moderation is worth striving for.

@G-Flex: High amounts of High Fructose Corn Syrup and synthetic sugars are bad for you. Fruits contain natural versions of fructose, which are widely regarded as less bad for you, as it's not steeped with processed sugar chemicals as HFCS

Critics of the extensive use of HFCS in food sweetening argue that the highly processed substance is more harmful to humans than regular sugar, contributing to weight gain by affecting normal appetite functions, and that in some foods HFCS may be a source of mercury, a known neurotoxin.[7][8] The Corn Refiners Association disputes these claims and maintains that HFCS is comparable to table sugar.[9] Studies by The American Medical Association suggest "it appears unlikely that HFCS contributes more to obesity or other conditions than sucrose", but welcome further independent research on the subject.[10] HFCS has been classified as generally recognized as safe by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration since 1976.[11]

This becomes obvious when you are diabetic or hypoglycemic. Any amount of processed sugars such as high fructose corn syrup and white sugar will simply kill people like me barring medical intervention (insulin), whereas small amounts of natural sugars are okay (cane sugar and honey).

Normal people are able to filter out such chemical substances, but over a long time - it'll still add to your long term health deterioration.

EDIT: Sources - Oh, and the whole reason HFCS is everywhere in the US? It's cheap due to corn subsidies by the government. Because it's so sweet in little quantities, people develop a small form of taste bud "sugar addiction" which is greatly aiding our Obesity epidemic. The poor and less-educated about health tend to drink up the soda and eat such foods and live a lifestyle that makes Heart disease/failure the biggest killer of Americans.

As of 2009 - most recent data
1.Diseases of heart - 598,607
2.Malignant neoplasms - 568,668
3.Chronic lower respiratory diseases - 137,082
4.Cerebrovascular diseases - 128,603
5.Accidents (unintentional injuries) - 117,176
6.Alzheimer’s disease - 78,889
7.Diabetes mellitus - 68,504
8.Influenza and pneumonia - 53,582
9.Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome and nephrosis - 48,714
10.Intentional self-harm (suicide)- 36,547
11.Septicemia - 35,587
12.Chronic liver disease and cirrhosis - 30,444
13.Essential hypertension and hypertensive renal disease - 25,651
14.Parkinson’s disease - 20,552
15.Assault (homicide) - 16,591
All other causes - 471,455

Note that besides heart disease, many more in the top 15 are related to cardiovascular system failure.

[Urist_McArathos]

In a DESPERATE effort to get this back on topic...

In other news, I had a crazy first today.  Today was the first time I brought up Dwarf Fortress in casual conversation with someone I hadn't already introduced to the game where they actually knew what I was talking about.  Turns out they read this article.

That is really cool to hear.  I knew the NY Times would be good exposure, but I figured this would be seen as some niche blurb that most people wouldn't read, or would skim over at best.  I think more exposure to this project is going to be good for it (more exposure means more potential players, which further means better chance of donations, which supports our local Toad), and it's exciting to see and hear about the effects of it.

[KaelGotDwarves]

We're on topic. No one wants Toady to drop dead soon.



Anyhow, seeing the donation figures for this upcoming month should be interesting...

[Africa]

I for one sure hope he fixes up his diet habits, basically because I've experienced the difference between eating well and not eating well and I know how much better the first one feels. And the idea of "hydrating" with soda (which I didn't even know was possible) makes me cringe. I can't stomach more than a 12 oz can of even Sprite, anymore. I hope all this stuff not because Dwarf Fortress depends on it (though it does) but because it makes me unhappy to think about another person being unhappy especially for a reason within their control, like that.

But the (apparently) isolated, nocturnal lifestyle also horrifies me, but the thing is, for that, I have to admit I don't really know what's best for him. To me, living like that would be a nightmare. For most people too, I think. But there's exceptions to most rules, and if he really is an exception to the rule that people need to be part of what we'd call normal society to be happy, then I'm really not in a position to assume he's not happy doing whatever he's doing.

Which leads to questioning the assumption that all the soda and poor diet means he's less happy, functional and healthy than he would be otherwise. They almost certainly are - but chain-smoking cigarettes for 80 years almost certainly will give you cancer, unless it doesn't. There's somebody out there for whom it hasn't. Toady probably isn't that one guy with regards to caffeine addiction, the godawful stuff in soda, and lack of a balanced diet with lots of fresh produce, but he could be.

If he wants to spend all his waking hours focusing on the project, fantastic. For me, devoting my time to one thing can be a temporary affair at best, like when I spent two months doing (in the big picture) nothing but backpacking a hiking trail. I have to mix it up and even my dream career is going to have to leave room for stuff like idly hanging out with friends, raising kids, messing around with bikes and riding them across countries and continents, and so on, or else I'd lose my mind. That's me. I don't see singleminded devotion to one project as a problem in itself, especially when that project is unambiguously a work of genius like DF is.


Still, I'm totally anti-caffeine (I love drinking my black tea and coffee, but it's just not worth the withdrawal I start to get after even minor exposure) and pro-healthy diet and pro-lots of exercise and I have to say, I sure hope he decides to start living a healthier lifestyle. You can always be happier, and being healthier is a way for most people, especially in sedentary first-world lifestyles, to get in that direction.

[Vector]

I believe soda is a diuretic.  So no, it isn't possible to "truly" rehydrate oneself via most sodas.

I could be incorrect.

In any case, I will only repeat what my favorite professor, and mentor, told me:

Mathematicians must eat like mountain climbers.

So... take care, all right?