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Author Topic: Beginner's Mafia XXV 4/7, 3/3 - Evening 2 - A Pillar of Light - GAME OVER  (Read 78141 times)

Max White

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Re: Beginner's Mafia XXV 7/7, 3/3 - D1 - Back to the Killing
« Reply #615 on: August 11, 2011, 12:32:29 am »

Votecount

IronyOwl[1]: Simple
Bdthemag[1]:  Urist_McArathos

Not voting: billybobfred, IronyOwl, Flandre, Vector, Bdthemag


The day will end Friday, the 12th , 7:00 PM Central time. You need 3 people to Extend and 5 to Shorten.
Did I get that right?

Now, most mods don't do this, but I found that one of the things I am always looking for are record on how everybody died, as such I am going to include a morgue with each vote count, for quick and easy reference, with some details about their death. Don't expect all games to include this.

Morgue
Urist Mcinternetuser(Mafia roleblock): Lynched by IronyOwl, Simple, Flandre and Vector
Webadict(townie): Killed, night 1

billybobfred

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Re: Beginner's Mafia XXV 5/7, 3/3 - D2 - Wuba Dub Dead
« Reply #616 on: August 11, 2011, 01:51:50 pm »

Something I've been thinking since the beginning of the day...

Webadict was damn sure Vector was scum. Now never mind why he was nightkilled, that's obviously a waste of time -- but now that he's dead, we know he was town, and as such, he wasn't trying to mislead us.

So I looked into Vector again. And she's been passive as hell the entire game. Even after webadict showed up and forced her into action, I get the feeling she was doing as little as felt she could get away with.

So, Vector, you've found time to make 95 posts, according to the lurker tracker. Why are so few of them useful?


(On an unrelated note, I really wanted to use my cleverness and do something with the fact that there's only one scum left, but I don't really know where to go with that.)
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Simple

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Re: Beginner's Mafia XXV 5/7, 3/3 - D2 - Wuba Dub Dead
« Reply #617 on: August 11, 2011, 02:24:44 pm »

-snip-
Just one more question : Would you say that urist play bore clear marks of IC help ?

-snip-
What do you mean by "the webadict argument"? Webadict was arguing all over the place right when I made my vote. There was nothing for me to "incite" "again". And even if there was, he was focusing on Vector, not McInternetuser.

I voted him because he was contradicting himself all over the place and generally spewing forth scumtells like, well, scum.
-snip-
Few people said that they were ok with urist lynching only because there was no direct conclusion on the webadict and vector warfare ( or at least that's my view on the situation at the d1 end). Throwing votes and plainly reassuring someone else case is something i would do if my partner lynch was not certain. Now, why his focus on vector be something that should make it more reasonable ? At this point vector was voting urist , so i guess it was easy to assume she could rethink it if she got the chance to lynch webadcit.


Bdthemag:What makes you suspect me and billybobfred ?


-snip-
That post both gives me mixed messages about your scumminess so : what's with the emphasis on webadict towniness ? Is that important part of your case ?

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Urist_McArathos

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Re: Beginner's Mafia XXV 5/7, 3/3 - D2 - Wuba Dub Dead
« Reply #618 on: August 11, 2011, 03:00:21 pm »

Simple

Clear signs?  Not from what I saw.  We know LNCP is a non playing IC offering advice, but I doubt he would advise Urist to be so scummy.  If either of the remaining ICs are scum, same thing.  Webadict and I both said we felt Urist was scum, which meant almost everyone either voted or called him out as scum.  It was really obvious.  I think his play showed signs of confusion, like he wasn't sure how to hide or defend himself.  Unfortunately, that doesn't tell me if he was badly executing IC advise or scrambling alone.
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Vector

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Re: Beginner's Mafia XXV 5/7, 3/3 - D2 - Wuba Dub Dead
« Reply #619 on: August 11, 2011, 03:36:25 pm »

Extend.

I do not have time to post until Saturday morning.  I have a final tomorrow morning, after which I will be very tired, and then a bunch of other crap in the evening.
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IronyOwl

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Re: Beginner's Mafia XXV 5/7, 3/3 - D2 - Wuba Dub Dead
« Reply #620 on: August 11, 2011, 07:24:33 pm »

Extend. Unlike Vector, unfortunately, I have no valid excuses.


McArathos:
Well, I guess I owe Webadict an apology...
Not really. If he's scummy, he's scummy. If he's suspicious, he's suspicious. If you want to investigate him... you get the idea.

Let's see...My number one vote is NKed, my number three lynched, and number two is rife with WIFOM arguments based on this aftermath.


Hmm...it could be that the scum did this in a sloppy attempt to frame somebody, but that seems a little too obvious, even for a newbie.  Webadict's investigation only pointed to Vector and Urist, and Urist is already dead, and Vector is...iffy to investigate, given that we could go round and round about whether or not she would NK Weba after their fighting Day One.
This is not how you deal with WIFOM. You deal with WIFOM by ignoring it, completely. This is arguably worse than indulging it because at least indulging it gives you a chance to be right- this is basically saying "this could involve WIFOM and is thus unknowable," which is completely unacceptable for dealing with someone's alignment.

2) Billybobfred/Vector.  Both have some things that are making me suspicious, but it's hard to pin them down with anything too solid.  Unfortunately, Weba being NKed is hard to ignore when making a case against Vector.  It seems like an obvious scum framing (but that way lies WIFOM, so I try to push it aside).

3) IronyOwl.  Not much on the owl, but I was fairly sure at least one IC was scum, and I'm not sure where I stand on Irony.  Bears watching, at least.
Is there any particular reason you're not questioning any of your three secondary suspicions?

I'm pretty sure you and Flandre are town; your scumhunting currently seems legit, not bandwagoning.  I suppose Flandre could have bussed Urist, but his play was so sloppy at the end I doubt it.  It seemed like an easy call to make.
This seems to contradict itself. Wouldn't Urist's play being so sloppy that it was an "easy call to make" make it more likely Flandre had bussed Urist?



Flandre:
Here is Urist's attempt at wriggling out of my grasp. They were questions addressed to you, nonetheless:
@Bdthemag Who do you think the scum are? Why were you so defensive early on in this game? And why did you you disappear afterward?
Why does Mcinternetuser attempting to deflect onto Bd make you suspicious of Bd?


Simple:
IronyOwl: You were pretty passive D1 but when you acted it all was bit strange how often it was connected with scriver/kilakan/urist actions.
I don't think so. Asking you about scriver was almost all I did prior to the replace business, but after that it seemed fairly spread out.

He was also strangely looking for your support few times. This itself wouldn't be enoug to make you my prime suspect but every time you pointed out his mistakes you ended at simple remark where everyone else mistakes you pointed out were followed by some questioning.
I don't remember anything like the first part, and the second part I'm pretty sure is wrong, if we're talking about McInternetuser.

I belive you were the person who attacked urist the least. Any conclusions from urist flip ?
I'm pretty sure this is wrong as well, though I couldn't swear to it. No current conclusions from Urist's flip, but I should probably reread and see if anyone was acting suspiciously, specifically hopping on the banwagon once it looked like he was a goner. Did that, noted that:

Vector was the fourth vote on him, and it was a bit lazy. Definitely puts her in the possible-bus category.
Flandre was on him pretty hard. Third vote, so it's certainly a possible bus, but there were numerous other targets and she was legitimately calling him out on things. Either a fairly elaborate setup or I'm thinking Flandre's town.
Simple was the second vote on him and pointed out his vote-hopping and general scumminess. Same general boat as Flandre.

So actually, I'm leaning pretty hardcore towards Vector being scum.


Feel free to provide quotes if you disagree with my disagreements, but at the moment it's looking like you don't really have a case.



Everyone:
Just to throw my 2 cents in, if you guys still think vec is suspicious, why not expand upon wubas suspicions? There is no need to interpret the NK sucssesfuly, so you should probably just stick with your previous suspicions if she was high up on your list.
This is surprisingly good advice. Also, while it should generally come from more experienced sources, I tend to prefer a more open policy on random strangers dropping by to dispense wisdom. A variety of viewpoints is usually a good thing.

but now that he's dead, we know he was town, and as such, he wasn't trying to mislead us.
This is correct. Note that this doesn't say anything about whether or not he was correct- he might have misjudged something, or been incompetent, or outwitted himself in some convoluted scheme that didn't pay off- but we know he wasn't malicious, and that if he said or did something, it was because he thought it would help town win.

The fact that he's pretty competent in general (and was NKed rather than lynched for being scummy) helps with that, of course, but this still shouldn't be confused with "he's town therefore his scumpicks are correct" or "he's town therefore everyone who was saying he's scum is scum themselves" or similar.
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Reverie

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Re: Beginner's Mafia XXV 5/7, 3/3 - D2 - Wuba Dub Dead
« Reply #621 on: August 12, 2011, 08:04:23 am »

Extend.

I apologize for not posting yesterday. I was a little busy creating a couple of avatars, and that took up all of my free time.
IronyOwl, I only pointed out Bd's lack of a response to the late Urist's question, as well as to my own. I was suspicious because he writes sporadic, seemingly well-timed posts, and therefore keeps updated on the thread while still missing what we ask of him.
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Think0028

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Re: Beginner's Mafia XXV 5/7, 3/3 - D2 - Wuba Dub Dead
« Reply #622 on: August 12, 2011, 12:06:56 pm »

Day Extended to Monday 7:00 PM CST.
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If it scares people into posting, then yes.

If they end up lynched because they didn't post, oh well. Too bad for them. Maybe they should've tried posting.
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billybobfred

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Re: Beginner's Mafia XXV 5/7, 3/3 - D2 - Wuba Dub Dead
« Reply #623 on: August 12, 2011, 01:19:39 pm »

-snip-
That post both gives me mixed messages about your scumminess so : what's with the emphasis on webadict towniness ? Is that important part of your case ?
It's not part of the case at all. All it is is a reason to look at Vector.

As IronyOwl said, knowing he wasn't malicious doesn't mean he wasn't wrong, so I don't want to rely on his thoughts too much. But what I saw didn't make Vector look very good.
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lordnincompoop

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Re: Beginner's Mafia XXV 5/7, 3/3 - D2 - Wuba Dub Dead
« Reply #624 on: August 13, 2011, 01:10:10 pm »

webadict and BDthemag will need prods.

Simple, Urist_McArathos and IronyOwl are cutting it close.
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Think0028

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Re: Beginner's Mafia XXV 5/7, 3/3 - D2 - Wuba Dub Dead
« Reply #625 on: August 13, 2011, 01:15:33 pm »

LNCP: Wuba dub dead. BD will be prodded, however. I'll let Simple, McArathos, and Irony ride it out til later today.
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If it scares people into posting, then yes.

If they end up lynched because they didn't post, oh well. Too bad for them. Maybe they should've tried posting.
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jc6036

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Re: Beginner's Mafia XXV 5/7, 3/3 - D2 - Wuba Dub Dead
« Reply #626 on: August 13, 2011, 01:16:31 pm »

Do mafia games normaly slow down this much after day 1?
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Vector

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Re: Beginner's Mafia XXV 5/7, 3/3 - D2 - Wuba Dub Dead
« Reply #627 on: August 13, 2011, 02:58:34 pm »

Well, yes, because apparently no one here knows how to do anything but follow the ICs and they were waiting on me to finish my final so that they can all, you know, do something.

Pfaugh.

This is ridiculous.  I'll post today at some point.  Right now I'm thinking through strategy.
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Simple

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Re: Beginner's Mafia XXV 5/7, 3/3 - D2 - Wuba Dub Dead
« Reply #628 on: August 13, 2011, 04:30:01 pm »

-snip-
I need to start making notes when i'm rereading, the first one was just my feeling after reread so i guess i can overblown this thing.
This post was what made me think why you haven't included scriver/kilakan in your suspects list. Maybe you could explain it now ? As for the looking for approval thingy : That is innocent enough i would omit it but alongside with this ( here i also wonder where he got this advice, because it's not like you directly said to him that he should question others ) i start to question if it's only taking the IC advice. It's hard to point where you have not questioned him but your your vote on him was basically a lurker call, and with each consequent response you just kept on correcting his mistakes without putting any apparent pressure on him. Not that i'm terribly convinced you're scum but i mainly investigated scriver/kilakan/urist interactions with my prime suspects, and i could just be wrong in doing that at all.

-snip-
That post both gives me mixed messages about your scumminess so : what's with the emphasis on webadict towniness ? Is that important part of your case ?
It's not part of the case at all. All it is is a reason to look at Vector.

As IronyOwl said, knowing he wasn't malicious doesn't mean he wasn't wrong, so I don't want to rely on his thoughts too much. But what I saw didn't make Vector look very good.
Sooo, you have no case on vector. Basically you just want everyone to vote her based only on the chance that webadict could be right. And you don't even want people to vote her but just 'look'. Not scummy at all. If that's not that, what's your case on her ?

Bdthemag: Opinions on everyone. Or at least three most scummy. Next: Should we lynch you just from the fact that you're worst kind of scum : lurking one ? Or there's something else except constant postponing your posts that you did to help town ?
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billybobfred

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Re: Beginner's Mafia XXV 5/7, 3/3 - D2 - Wuba Dub Dead
« Reply #629 on: August 13, 2011, 05:40:04 pm »

Sooo, you have no case on vector. Basically you just want everyone to vote her based only on the chance that webadict could be right. And you don't even want people to vote her but just 'look'. Not scummy at all. If that's not that, what's your case on her ?
... Did you read my post at all, or are you just seeing what you want to see?

Vector has done hardly any actual scumhunting the whole game. No, that's not a case by itself, which is why I am questioning her instead of calling for torches and pitchforks. Voting for her based just on the off chance that webadict was right would be stupid.
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