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[Vector]

It's not that he didn't do the other stuff as well.  I was saying that his answering a different question didn't clear him.


As for why I'm pissed at Webadict, I think he's scum and if I don't go full-bore for as long as humanly possible, there's no way I'm possibly going to be able to hang him.  It's partially utility.

It's also partially because I feel like he's actively mocking me because he knows he can get away with it and still have everyone and their pet cow listen to him.  And the sticking crap in my mouth to discredit me, etc., etc.  At first, it was just a worried feeling, but now I'm starting to feel more and more sure of myself.

[Urist_McArathos]

Alright, here's my scumlist as it stands:

• Webadict

.  You're scum, and I'll get to you in a moment.

• Vector

.  You could be scum too, and I'll likewise get to you in a moment.

• Urist McInternetuser

Suffice to say I'm agreeing with the arguments made by your bandwagon, but not enough to join.  We've got bigger fish to fry.  Little more on you later to make sure people know I have my own reasons.

• Bdthemag

.  You're lurking and avoiding questions.  It's scummy behavior, but again, we have better targets to go for at the moment.

• billybobfred

.  I haven't heard much from you, and you seem lurky, but I'll admit I do a poor job of tracking activity when it's not blatant.  I'll be watching you, but you're not really reading scum to me.

• Flandre, Simple (tie)

.  You two seem the least scummy so far; I will say this though, Flandre.  You said you need to do more research on Urist?  Hurry.  It's been 30 pages since day one started, we need to start casting votes.  Right now I'll believe you're just taking time to make a good vote, but if that behavior keeps up, I will have to re-evaluate if you're being overcautious or deliberately slowing the Town down.
[/list]

@Webadict:  You're scum.  Period, end of quote.  It's probably not wise for a green-as-a-blade-of-grass newbie like me to gun for you, but I can't sit by and watch after spending 30 pages reading up on your behavior.  You walk in here like King Shit, and it seems all you've done since the moment you arrived is be abrasive and try to rile up Vector.  At first I assumed this was your unique brand of scum-hunting, but what scumhunting have you done?  You made a passing remark about Urist McInternetuser being Vector's scumbuddy, but never pursued it.  In fact, all you've done is question Vector's picks (after criticizing the hell out of her play to that point) while declaring two people should not be lynched today, then proceeded to toss out two non-Vector votes before quickly moving them back onto her.

A whole day.  A whole, entire, DAY and all you've done is pick and prod Vector, relentlessly.  This is not scumhunting; you barely even glanced at anyone else.  I know you're a better player than to have such drastic tunnel vision.  Why is no one else worthy of more than a passing glance?  Early on, you made it clear you knew Vector was scum.  Why haven't you scoped out other targets?  Why aren't you hunting for her partner while you hold your vote on her?  You've bragged about your scummy behavior to boot.  One that sticks out to me is:

...And, oh yeah, it pretty much is chainlynching. Got any problems with that? I could even do a "lynch me, then lynch Vector" one if you want. I mean, you might as well try to get rid of me now. Passive attacks are just so unbecoming...

This could be a throwaway remark intended to rattle Vector's cage, but I don't think so now.  You've bragged about pulling "every scumtell in the book", and this just feels like you're waving your plans in her face to infuriate her.  Get her lynched, she flips town, NK a useful Townie, then when we all realize you played us on Day 2, your scumbuddy quietly busses you and learns a valuable lesson about manipulation before NKing the Townie you suggest in your last scumchat.  Day 3 begins with THREE (arguably the best three) Townies dead, and your scumbuddy lost in the confusion after two days were spent entirely poring over you and Vector.  Nice tactic, but I know it's not your only one.  Plus, your OMGUS move (claiming "inb4" doesn't change the truth).  You mocked Vector for having only one vote from you and how laughable a threat that would be, then IMMEDIATELY change your vote to her in retaliation for her FIRST vote on you (I might add that you voted her long before she voted you, so you're the only one OMGUSing here).  It's not a smoking gun, but it seems a bit too scummy to ignore.

Also, that bit recently about Vector being scum because she gave advice about assumptions and IC roles?  Scum move.  Vector's job, like yours, is to educate here first and win second.  You know that, and you know pointing this fact out doesn't help her AT ALL as either town or scum, since it invites investigation upon her.  If she's town, it draws attention away from scum (bad for town); if she's scum, it draws attention onto her (bad for scum).  You jumped on it as another chance to poke her, and try to convince everyone she's scum.  You're not investigating, you're drawing things out, misleading and manipulating, and you're relentlessly attacking one person to the exclusion of all others.  Your weak, quickly-changed votes on Flandre and BD don't count; you never intended to lynch them anyway.  But you're not just scum, you're dangerous scum.  I'm betting you're the strongest scum player in this game, and that means YOU need to go first, so they can flail and screw up without your guidance.  Every second you stay is another chance to salvage their mistakes and keep them moving towards victory.  We can lynch your buddy later, but you have to go now.  You're a danger to town, and I won't ignore you so readily.  Vote Webadict.

@Vector: You were, for a long time, a solid Townie in my books.  I figured you had to be, until you said:

Flandre, don't assume that one must be town and the other scum, or even that either of us is town.

Before you start, I'm not calling that a scumtell.  You were town in my books because I was positive Weba was scum, and there was only ONE IC scum, so you had to be Town by default.  If it's possible for you both to be scum, I'm definitely suspicious of you.

You played soft at first, even you admit that.  Now, you've gotten bogged down in this war with Weba, and although I'll credit you with some scumhunting, you seem a little too easily distracted by his remarks.  What really gets me though, is your vote changed to Urist.  Why, why, why would you do that?  If Weba is such an obvious scum, and as you said you need to go full-bore to hang him and get us to see what's so, WHY would you shift your focus and pressure onto Urist?  I'm not saying Urist is a poor choice, I just don't see how ANY choice is as important as Webadict.  We've had a long first day, and focus is waning.  Why would you jump ship so soon, instead of trying to solidify a case and get the distraction out of the way?  It just seems like a bad move, Town wise.  I had some more points, but I'm coming off a 14 hour shift and going onto a 16 hour one soon, so I'm having trouble remembering.  Rest assured, I'll bring it up when I do.

@Urist McInternetuser: Simple outlined a strong case that I agreed with, but I'll bring up some other points.

@Webadict I never got to have a rvs, I don't know what questions to ask, I have never played this before, so now that I'm trying to question bd, without relying on others posts, and I get criticized.

This is bullshit.  I lectured Flandre about the 30 pages bit, and while it may have been a bit rude, it goes even more so for you.  You didn't miss rvs, you just didn't get to personally lob a bunch of softball questions and probe everyone.  It was done for you; reread it, make some conclusions, and get running.  Then, reread any other posts for the persons you suspect, and stay abreast of the topic; you'll start getting some suspicions, even if they're wrong.  RVS isn't where you find scum, it's where you establish a baseline.  None of the easy questions in RVS help or hinder scum, so asking more here is, at best, a pointless waste of time (and at worst, it's a scum tactic meant to delay and confuse).  It's a terrible excuse for doing fourth-rate scumhunting, and if you were a more experienced player I'd say you knew better.  Maybe you didn't before, but considering I'm not the first calling you out for it, you do now.

Also, saying you don't know what questions to ask means you're not paying attention.  If you'd been watching people, you'd have concerns and suspicions you could voice.  I may be completely up in the night in my remarks to Vector and Webadict, but I still had remarks.  You're either a crummy town player, or you're deliberately trying to coast along and stay out of sight.  That's not helping find scum, it is scummy behavior, and it's why a bandwagon is forming for you.  If I didn't think I had a more important choice, I'd be voting you too.  If you're town, get your act together before we mislynch.

Nextly:  Bdthemag, I want to know why you stopped testing out Webadict's defenses.  You were the one pointing out contradictions and hypocrisies, and demanding some answers.  It was a good start to scumhunting and gave me the idea that he might be scum instead of a rude townie.  Why did you stop?  I didn't see anything convincing from Webadict personally: just some remarks to the effect of "Yes, I'm contradicting myself and being a hypocrite.  Anyway, I'm going to continue that now,"

If you had questions about them before, wouldn't his dismissive and dodgy replies set off some alarm bells for you?  I'd say yes.  Why didn't it?  Furthermore, WHERE are you?  If you're legitimately busy, then tell us so we know.  If you're not, why are you staying clear of the end of the day?  Are you trying to avoid a scumtell with your voting, and thus want to claim innocence at the outset of Day 2?

Just an FYI for tomorrow, as said I'll be working ALL DAY; I cannot post in-depth replies from my phone, and it has cookies enabled so I may appear logged in even when I am not able to post.  I will not lurk the day away.  If I can answer you with a short sentence I will; otherwise expect another wall of text tomorrow night.  Sorry; I'm off Mondays so those will be the best day for me to keep to more normal-length posts.

[Urist_McArathos]

EDIT: And I just now noticed that IronyOwl is an IC too; missed that before.  Anyway, my point still stands that I think you're Town, Irony, but I'll be taking a closer look at you now.  No offense, I just know the IC's are veterans and therefore more dangerous than newbies as scum, and better at hiding.

I'm sure you understand.

[Vector]

Vote changed to the other Urist because it was a 5-way tie or something, which I had to break because the day was about to end and I was only the second extender (didn't know if a third would be around).

I will get back to Webadict tomorrow.  Today is Friday, the end of a busy school week (example: I had an examination yesterday and an essay due on Monday), and I am too tired to be helpful at much else than bothering the other Urist.  The vote on Urist really was supposed to be there only in the case of not getting an extension, but before I could change it back he'd posted more scummy shit and I figured I might as well use my remaining energy to work him over.

Frankly, while I'm writing my case on Webadict, I really want to be awake for it, not falling asleep in my chair.


As for why he distracts me and pisses me off so much, we've had a feud going for two years now, ever since my first game here.  The first Beginner's Mafia.  I used to actually refuse to sign up for games he was playing.  Now we just end up trying to light each other on rhetorical fire every so often.

... I'll also admit that I have a bit of a temper.


Also, just to be clear, no one should make any assumptions about the alignment distributions of the ICs.  We can have any combination of alignments.

[webadict]

Finally, someone that tries!

Alright, here's my scumlist as it stands:

• Webadict

.  You're scum, and I'll get to you in a moment.

• Vector

.  You could be scum too, and I'll likewise get to you in a moment.

• Urist McInternetuser

Suffice to say I'm agreeing with the arguments made by your bandwagon, but not enough to join.  We've got bigger fish to fry.  Little more on you later to make sure people know I have my own reasons.

• Bdthemag

.  You're lurking and avoiding questions.  It's scummy behavior, but again, we have better targets to go for at the moment.

• billybobfred

.  I haven't heard much from you, and you seem lurky, but I'll admit I do a poor job of tracking activity when it's not blatant.  I'll be watching you, but you're not really reading scum to me.

• Flandre, Simple (tie)

.  You two seem the least scummy so far; I will say this though, Flandre.  You said you need to do more research on Urist?  Hurry.  It's been 30 pages since day one started, we need to start casting votes.  Right now I'll believe you're just taking time to make a good vote, but if that behavior keeps up, I will have to re-evaluate if you're being overcautious or deliberately slowing the Town down.
[/list]

Hard to argue with "period", isn't it? Let's see what you've got. I shall be amused while reading for once.

@Webadict:  You're scum.  Period, end of quote.  It's probably not wise for a green-as-a-blade-of-grass newbie like me to gun for you, but I can't sit by and watch after spending 30 pages reading up on your behavior.  You walk in here like King Shit, and it seems all you've done since the moment you arrived is be abrasive and try to rile up Vector.  At first I assumed this was your unique brand of scum-hunting, but what scumhunting have you done?  You made a passing remark about Urist McInternetuser being Vector's scumbuddy, but never pursued it.  In fact, all you've done is question Vector's picks (after criticizing the hell out of her play to that point) while declaring two people should not be lynched today, then proceeded to toss out two non-Vector votes before quickly moving them back onto her.

I don't see why this wouldn't be "wise," except for the fact that I am, on all accounts, Town. Which means you're obviously reading the wrong parts.

Let's see what you didn't read first... Oh right! Perhaps you realize that there's this thing called "dead men tell no tales"? Well, the reason I'm pushing Vector around is to get the most information out of her before she dies as possible. I don't think there were two non-Vector votes. There was only Flandre, and I had already provided rationale for that, but as I can see you skip over all the things you read, I'll have to explain it again and hope you don't jump over this part: I was voting Flandre in an attempt to see how Vector would craft an argument on her. I had two other suspicions, and if you couldn't tell, Vector has jumped onto both of them.

And yes, I did criticize her play. Do you have a reason why I shouldn't?

A whole day.  A whole, entire, DAY and all you've done is pick and prod Vector, relentlessly.  This is not scumhunting; you barely even glanced at anyone else.  I know you're a better player than to have such drastic tunnel vision.  Why is no one else worthy of more than a passing glance?  Early on, you made it clear you knew Vector was scum.  Why haven't you scoped out other targets?  Why aren't you hunting for her partner while you hold your vote on her?  You've bragged about your scummy behavior to boot. 

And yet I have two suspicions, oddly enough. I don't think you've even taken a look at what I said. I believe I said, "Vector is scum." During this time I have been analyzing her arguments toward people I suspect to be her scumpartner. These people have been Flandre and Urist, who you will notice as the people that Vector has voted. Why you seem to think I'm "not glancing at anyone" is beyond me, since I've decided on who NOT to lynch, and therefore there would be no need to focus on them. I mean, let me ask you this: "Why aren't you focusing on Flandre?" Dur, because you don't think she's scum! Wow, this might be a new concept to you, but people actually have logical thought processes!

So, why would it make sense for me to know who BOTH scum are? I know how Vector plays well, so if I know she's scum, I will follow it to the ends of the Earth. Anyone she goes after will be judged as to the severity of the attack.

One that sticks out to me is:

...And, oh yeah, it pretty much is chainlynching. Got any problems with that? I could even do a "lynch me, then lynch Vector" one if you want. I mean, you might as well try to get rid of me now. Passive attacks are just so unbecoming...

This could be a throwaway remark intended to rattle Vector's cage, but I don't think so now.  You've bragged about pulling "every scumtell in the book", and this just feels like you're waving your plans in her face to infuriate her.  Get her lynched, she flips town, NK a useful Townie, then when we all realize you played us on Day 2, your scumbuddy quietly busses you and learns a valuable lesson about manipulation before NKing the Townie you suggest in your last scumchat.  Day 3 begins with THREE (arguably the best three) Townies dead, and your scumbuddy lost in the confusion after two days were spent entirely poring over you and Vector.  Nice tactic, but I know it's not your only one.  Plus, your OMGUS move (claiming "inb4" doesn't change the truth).  You mocked Vector for having only one vote from you and how laughable a threat that would be, then IMMEDIATELY change your vote to her in retaliation for her FIRST vote on you (I might add that you voted her long before she voted you, so you're the only one OMGUSing here).  It's not a smoking gun, but it seems a bit too scummy to ignore.

Um... You have just severely misread a quote. Maybe you're not a native speaker, but in English, it usually goes from left to right. So, when it says "lynch me, then lynch Vector," I BELIEVE that means lynch me FIRST, and then lynch Vector SECOND. Do you get how that works? Maybe you just don't understand how time relates itself to the universe?

Let's break this down into such a trivial parts that you couldn't POSSIBLY mess up how it goes.

The chainlynching thing? That was to make Vector mad. She was making a passive attack on what I was doing by "setting up multiple lynches," which isn't true, as I consider each individual lynch its own lynch. There was no either-or in there except for the debate over whether to choose Flandre or InternetUser, but that was to be saved for the next day (though I don't believe Flandre to be the likely partner anymore, which you would have read had you actually read anything.)

Then I said that I could "lynch me, then Vector" to taunt Vector a second time. Perhaps you didn't read the part after that, where I said that "you might as well get rid of me now." Because my plan works sooooooo well if I'm scum! Shoot! How will I lynch Vector now?!?

I can't tell if you think I have an IQ below 20, if you're just really stupid, or if you're doing this on purpose.

Also, that bit recently about Vector being scum because she gave advice about assumptions and IC roles?  Scum move.  Vector's job, like yours, is to educate here first and win second.  You know that, and you know pointing this fact out doesn't help her AT ALL as either town or scum, since it invites investigation upon her.  If she's town, it draws attention away from scum (bad for town); if she's scum, it draws attention onto her (bad for scum).  You jumped on it as another chance to poke her, and try to convince everyone she's scum.  You're not investigating, you're drawing things out, misleading and manipulating, and you're relentlessly attacking one person to the exclusion of all others.  Your weak, quickly-changed votes on Flandre and BD don't count; you never intended to lynch them anyway.  But you're not just scum, you're dangerous scum.  I'm betting you're the strongest scum player in this game, and that means YOU need to go first, so they can flail and screw up without your guidance.  Every second you stay is another chance to salvage their mistakes and keep them moving towards victory.  We can lynch your buddy later, but you have to go now.  You're a danger to town, and I won't ignore you so readily.  Vote Webadict.

Again, I applaud your effort to misread the situation and jump over the important parts. Maybe I didn't explain this well, but I did that exact thing as scum IC. It IS a "no harsh feelings" post. QQ about it some more, but THAT'S what I would've done in her shoes as scum. Also, thanks for repeating the same ol' things.

And if I were scum, your bet would probably be right. But, let's take a hypothetical stroll down scum Webadict lane. If I were scum, do you think I WOULDN'T be allowed to help my partner in scum chat? Do you think that there ISN'T a scum IC in there already? Do you honestly believe that being scum involves making an enemy out of Vector, especially when she would have thought nothing of me had I not pursued her? I mean, if you want to play the worst scum in the world, sure, you've just screwed yourself over. Scum play logically, too. They don't do things because scum wouldn't UNLESS it helps them achieve their goal. Think logically for a second.

So, congratulations on misreading everything important. I've enjoyed it.

[Reverie]

@Flandre My current suspect is bdthemag, but the only things I have against him are his strange reactions to other people's scumhunting questions, and his lurkiness ever since.

@Bdthemag Who do you think the scum are? Why were you so defensive early on in this game? And why did you you disappear afterward?

Urist McInternetuser: You said yourself that you have insufficient evidence against Bdthemag, and although your suspicion of him is long-standing, you red-vote him right as you tell me this? You could have done this anytime else, and it would not have seemed scummy and convenient for you, like it does here. These questions are hardly abrasive enough to be attached to a red-vote, and because of this, there is an obvious mismatch in the severity of your attack. But then again, your last request of him was to simply defend himself against his would-be lynchers, making yourself look like you were scum-hunting.

@Flandre I'm trying to interrogate bd, I'm starting off with those questions, and once I get his answers I will continue to question him.

No, I think that you know Bdthemag to be town, began faux-interrogating him to fortify your lie, and only intend to worm your way out of the argument whilst not stepping on any toes.

[Reverie]

Simple:

Bdthemag - He's completelty lazy but i have the feeling he just don't care about being lynched or scum victory either. That bascially makes him completely useless but gives us no insight on his real goals. I guess i was to inclined to judge him basing on his attitiude than his actions. Praising billybob case on him based only on length of his post is riddicoulous though.Also dropping by just to say extend twice in a row is annoying as hell.

After reading into this, I notice that you indirectly hint at Bdthemag being town. Can you elaborate on why you think he doesn't care for a scum victory, or being lynched?

Vector:

As for why I'm pissed at Webadict, I think he's scum and if I don't go full-bore for as long as humanly possible, there's no way I'm possibly going to be able to hang him. It's partially utility.

Would you consider Urist Mcinternetuser and myself to have prevented you from going full-bore on Webadict for as long as you interrogated us?

[Urist_McArathos]

PFP: Oh Webadict, this is going to be precisely as hard as I expected.  I wouldn't want to deprive you of your entertainment though.

By the way, english is my first language.  I misread that line, and severely fucked up an argument.  Disregard that portion.  I'll respond further after work.

[Vector]

Would you consider Urist Mcinternetuser and myself to have prevented you from going full-bore on Webadict for as long as you interrogated us?

First I was defending myself from Webadict and attacking you, which made the question irrelevant because I hadn't figured he was scum yet.

Then I was too tired to attack Webadict but happened to have my vote on Mr.Internet, so I attacked him.

So, no.  The first instance was due to lack of apparent need, and the second instance due to physical/mental exhaustion.  I fully intend to keep questioning people as necessary while I'm working over Webadict.

[Bdthemag]

Sorry folks, i've had only access to a phone. I'll get to posting later tonight.

[Reverie]

I fully intend to keep questioning people as necessary while I'm working over Webadict.

Sorry for the poor question... This is what I was looking for, though. Thank you much!

[Max White]

Votecount

Bdthemag[2]: billybobfred, Urist Mcinternetuser
Urist_McArathos[1]:  Bdthemag
Vector[1]: webadict
Urist Mcinternetuser[3]: IronyOwl, Simple, Flandre
webadict[2]: Urist_McArathos, Vector

The day will end Monday, 7:00 PM Central time. You need 3 people to Extend and 5 to Shorten.

[Simple]

Just finished reading everythng.

@Simple I never said that I was sure Flandre is town, what I said was

I think Flandre is probably town.

Apparently arguing about semantics what we need right now. If you confirm that few times, never say a word that would make us think you feel otherwise i don't think adding way to make it meaningless is important. And

-snip-

Woah, not expected that wall of text.I'm not sure where rage in webadict case ends but few questions anyway: One IC scum only ? Even if it were true (it isn't) why you assume one of them must be scum ?  At the beginning of your post you say that vector could be scum but later you emphasize that these are only suspicions, why ? And i guess even if these are not all, you started from the most serious ones ?

Webadict:: Could you expand on the "she would have thought nothing of me had I not pursued her?" part ? Because i don't feel like situation like we have now would be very bad if you were scum, maybe a little risky but in my opinion it's not something i would call completely unreasonable scum move.

Simple:

Bdthemag - He's completelty lazy but i have the feeling he just don't care about being lynched or scum victory either. That bascially makes him completely useless but gives us no insight on his real goals. I guess i was to inclined to judge him basing on his attitiude than his actions. Praising billybob case on him based only on length of his post is riddicoulous though.Also dropping by just to say extend twice in a row is annoying as hell.

After reading into this, I notice that you indirectly hint at Bdthemag being town. Can you elaborate on why you think he doesn't care for a scum victory, or being lynched?

Maybe saying he's town is bit too much, his behavior is still incriminating but after reading bit of his previous game i believe he just plays like this regardless of alignment ( i know this is meta argument that's not worth much but it makes sense to me). Besides he never even tried to go into vector/webadict front which i believe he would jump right away as scum. Or that's the scummy plan of non-interference,and that's why i can't rule him out completely so only the weight of his tells dropped.

[Urist Mcinternetuser]

@Flandre: Ever since I have joined I have been criticized for not questioning people enough, and now that I think bd is scum, and I begin to question him, you say that I'm not questioning him, but rather reinforcing my argument.

@Simple: Why do you say that my initial attack on jc was bullshit? Also you brought up when I said "make me doubt him", I meant "I think he is scum", it's just the way I talk. And part of the reason I unvoted jc, was because I read Webadict's posts about jc just being an idiot town, which made me think "oh maybe he's right", afterward, I felt that jc seemed to ease off of bdthemag to easily after attacking him the whole game, so I voted for him. Then I re-read the whole thread and realized that jc is probably just a stupid townie, and that his enemy bdthemag, was much more suspicious so I began to attack him. And you say that I looked to you for reinforcement, when I was simply asking your opinion of him, as you had been attacking him on the previous page. Also, while I don't assume everyone is scum, I don't assume they are town either, I wait until their actions read eitherway.

[Reverie]

Maybe saying he's town is bit too much, his behavior is still incriminating but after reading bit of his previous game i believe he just plays like this regardless of alignment ( i know this is meta argument that's not worth much but it makes sense to me). Besides he never even tried to go into vector/webadict front which i believe he would jump right away as scum. Or that's the scummy plan of non-interference,and that's why i can't rule him out completely so only the weight of his tells dropped.

Bd can't intervene if he is never on. His lack of activity can be considered scummy, sure, but it is not a solid case (due to the ease with which he could lay blame on real-world circumstances).

@Flandre: Ever since I have joined I have been criticized for not questioning people enough, and now that I think bd is scum, and I begin to question him, you say that I'm not questioning him, but rather reinforcing my argument.

Are you telling me that you only now believe that Bd is scum? Where did you cross the line from being suspicious to being so sure? If I am not mistaken, Bd has not said much of anything since your last request of him to defend himself. To top it off, your questions are far too passive for that pretty red box you put them in.
It is simple, really. You red-voted to allay our suspicion, and ask questions of Bd that he could surely answer in his sleep. He would not bother with an OMGUS if he hardly had to lift a finger, right?

Bdthemag: You popped into the thread just long enough to vote for an extension, because you knew that chances were good that you were to going to be lynched. Why did you not offer anything to protect yourself when you posted that?