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[Urist_McArathos]

Okay, time to try a few replies...not much since I can see today was slow.

First up, Webadict.

I don't see why this wouldn't be "wise," except for the fact that I am, on all accounts, Town. Which means you're obviously reading the wrong parts.

You may claim that you're Town, but I am clearly inclined to disagree.  I said it may be unwise since I'm trading points with a vastly more experienced player, not because scumhunting is unwise.  I'm sure I have misread some things. I'd love for you to clear them up for me; if I'm hunting the wrong player, no time like the present to inform me of that and get to hunting the real scum, right?  Let's see what you said...

Let's see what you didn't read first... Oh right! Perhaps you realize that there's this thing called "dead men tell no tales"? Well, the reason I'm pushing Vector around is to get the most information out of her before she dies as possible. I don't think there were two non-Vector votes. There was only Flandre, and I had already provided rationale for that, but as I can see you skip over all the things you read, I'll have to explain it again and hope you don't jump over this part: I was voting Flandre in an attempt to see how Vector would craft an argument on her. I had two other suspicions, and if you couldn't tell, Vector has jumped onto both of them.

No, there were two votes.  You voted for Bdthemag because "he was the scummiest".  You then changed your vote right back to Vector once the extension went through, AFTER quoting JC and saying you should have voted him instead.  When pressed for details on what changed your mind about JC, you dismissed it with the comment "I don't even think you know what you're asking anymore".

This was RIGHT AFTER IronyOwl made it clear that votes should be considered lynch votes.  You moved to lynch Bd (someone who you started with "we shouldn't lynch today), specifically because you wanted to avoid a tie.  So much for now wanting him lynched, though I doubt it was a sincere effort; you did vote for an extension.  Why risk it though?  What if the extension had failed?  You never explained why you wanted Bd lynched beyond "he's scummy"; I think you're scummy too, but I at least am offering my reasons, however laughable and outrageous you may find them.  Then you declare JC even scummier (despite being certain he was town, your own words on the matter), but vote instead for Vector. 

So, you clearly also forgot this whole thing happened.  Why would you be so careless with your votes?  You've only voted for three people, and five times.  It's not much, but you can't even remember all of them?  Lynch votes are not something to flippantly toss about, unless you're scum and don't really care about the hunt.  Yeah, it's a lame, obvious scumtell, I know.  True scum wouldn't do something so blatantly stupid because it's illogical, right?  Don't worry, I won't call it a scumtell.  But you know what?

...considering that I've done almost every scumtell in the book and STILL haven't even received a vote...

I don't really have to, do I?  You know what you're doing, and I think you know you're good enough to get away with it.

And yes, I did criticize her play. Do you have a reason why I shouldn't?

Not at all; if you'd read my response to Vector, I agreed this was a valid point; hell, even she agreed with your criticisms.  I'm not defending Vector here, she is after all my number two pick.  I just don't have as heavy a case against her, for my own noobish reasons (which I'll cover in a bit, in response to Simple).

And yet I have two suspicions, oddly enough. I don't think you've even taken a look at what I said. I believe I said, "Vector is scum." During this time I have been analyzing her arguments toward people I suspect to be her scumpartner. These people have been Flandre and Urist, who you will notice as the people that Vector has voted. Why you seem to think I'm "not glancing at anyone" is beyond me, since I've decided on who NOT to lynch, and therefore there would be no need to focus on them. I mean, let me ask you this: "Why aren't you focusing on Flandre?" Dur, because you don't think she's scum! Wow, this might be a new concept to you, but people actually have logical thought processes!

So, why would it make sense for me to know who BOTH scum are? I know how Vector plays well, so if I know she's scum, I will follow it to the ends of the Earth. Anyone she goes after will be judged as to the severity of the attack.

I have taken a look at what you said.  You said it's bad practice to build teams, but you're doing it anyway because you can't lynch Vector.  Why not?  Why can't you try to lynch Vector, especially if you're so certain you have her scumpartners figured out?

What bothers me isn't that nobody else is on your radar (I acknowledged that you fingered Urist Mcinternetuser as a potential buddy, if you'd remember), but that you're not bothering to ask THEM any questions or hunt them in any form.  Your entire strategy revolves around harassing Vector until you can find her connections?  It doesn't seem like scumhunting, it seems like single-minded harassing.  Why not question Urist, or Flandre, or anyone else you consider to be scum?  Especially if they're newbies, aren't they more likely to crack than someone who is just as familiar with your style and methods as you are hers?  Why can't you do it the other way?  Remember, I'm not attacking your refusal to interrogate the people you think are Town, I'm critiquing your refusal to question any of your so-called scumpicks except one.  This one also happens to be your most vocal (and until I showed up ONLY) opponent.

I left out the bit about the chainlynching; I already admitted I misread that line and built an entire point and attack around it.  It looked terrible, and I'm thoroughly embarrassed by it.  Rookie mistake, not double checking my words and yours before hitting "Post".  I'll try not to let it happen again.

Again, I applaud your effort to misread the situation and jump over the important parts. Maybe I didn't explain this well, but I did that exact thing as scum IC. It IS a "no harsh feelings" post. QQ about it some more, but THAT'S what I would've done in her shoes as scum. Also, thanks for repeating the same ol' things.

Here's where you have it wrong:  You're referring to THIS post of Vector's.  Meanwhile, the one I was referring to was...

Flandre, don't assume that one must be town and the other scum, or even that either of us is town.

A simple tip, which you did confirm was accurate (which, to be fair, was a nice move as an IC), but not without taking a pot-shot at Vector.

That's my point: making us aware that any of you three could be scum (or even all of you, though I find that unlikely) had ZERO tactical advantages.  Yet you used it as just another chance to pick at her, and tried to twist it to make her look scummy.  No one's QQing about her little comforting remark, I'm pointing out that you seem determined to use every, EVERY possible weapon against her.  Why are you so determined and so certain, despite having done relatively nothing besides antagonize her?

And if I were scum, your bet would probably be right. But, let's take a hypothetical stroll down scum Webadict lane. If I were scum, do you think I WOULDN'T be allowed to help my partner in scum chat? Do you think that there ISN'T a scum IC in there already? Do you honestly believe that being scum involves making an enemy out of Vector, especially when she would have thought nothing of me had I not pursued her? I mean, if you want to play the worst scum in the world, sure, you've just screwed yourself over. Scum play logically, too. They don't do things because scum wouldn't UNLESS it helps them achieve their goal. Think logically for a second.

So, congratulations on misreading everything important. I've enjoyed it.

That bit about attacking Vector seems off; why would Vector think nothing of you?  If (and we're assuming this purely for the sake of argument, since we're taking that stroll down scum Webadict lane after all) she's Town, she has no reason to believe you can't be scum, and just as much reason to suspect you as anyone else.  More, in fact, since you're a cunning and experienced player who will be VERY hard for the newbs to sniff out on their own.  Do you really believe that you are so minor a presence here that you can be readily ignored without consequences, ESPECIALLY by those who don't know your true alignment?

Now, I'll admit I don't know what a "no harsh feelings" post is, that's why I wasn't referring to it.  I'm not deliberately arguing from ignorance, I'm trying to confront you with the holes, flaws, and contradictions that have led me to believe you're scum (and there's a LOT of them).

Of course I believe there is a scum IC right now; I believe there's at least two of you (you and LNCP), and I know you can use scum chat to help each other.  Yes, I believe being scum means taking out the Town ICs that have the best chance of identifying you, and if you're scum you know whether or not Vector is (and if she's not, best to get rid of her before she can build a case against you).  The other option that I've seriously considered is that you two are scumbuddies and this is an elaborate bussing.  Maybe that seems a bit too obvious, but maybe you feel you can pull it off in a room full of newbies, especially with the last IC (that would be IronyOwl) focused elsewhere.  Or hell, maybe Irony's your scumbuddy too and is helping keep us in the dark.

I don't know, that's why I'm not voting for them or building teams.  I'm hunting scum one by one, and you're my number one.  I'm not going to blow a lynch vote on a newbie scumbuddy (or a less likely IC suspect) when a more experienced mafia can be taken out instead.  If you're really Town, now's the time to start teaching me where I'm screwing up and start giving me a reason to trust you instead of suspect you.

@Simple:

Yeah, sorry for the walls.  To be fair, I had a LOT to sift through over the course of day one (we're not even done and we're at 34 pages), and my biggest target was also one of the less questioned ones.  I wanted to make a strong case, since I knew Webadict would be VERY capable of defending himself; no point in voting him if I don't bring my A-game, however sorry it may be.  Plus, like I said, I can only be around once a day on work days, except for very VERY small posts if I get a break.  My posts may have to be somewhat wall-like, unfortunately.  I'll try to be more concise, I can be longwinded.

I may not have been clear before, so let me explain: No, I never said I currently believed there is one IC scum only.  I made the mistake of assuming that there could not be more than one because the rules forbade it; before I was subbed in, Vector and Webadict explained that there is no guaranteed number of IC scum; it could be all three, it could be NONE of them.  I then said I suspected Vector as well.  So, no, I am actually of the opinion that there are at least two IC scum (I doubt it's one), possibly even three (but I doubt this too, more so than only one).

All I have are suspicions; it's the same with Webadict.  I don't have proof, after all.  I suspect Weba more, but I do have a lot of doubts about Vector.  I need to craft my case against Vector (and take a long hard look at IronyOwl just out of principle), but I acknowledge that I made the mistake of assuming there would only be one IC scum and I was caught a bit unprepared to present a case against two or three.  Thank god for that, my initial scumpick post would have been WAY too damned long if it had my entire case against Vector AND my remarks on Irony all at once.

I'm not sure I understand the last part's meaning:

...And i guess even if these are not all, you started from the most serious ones ?

Please explain what you're asking me a bit more clearly, I will gladly give you an answer.

Urist Mcinternetuser

Your reply to Flandre never addressed WHY you think Bd is scum.  In fact, you've whined about how others are attacking you, and how it's not fair that one time you're not asking questions, then you're asking the wrong ones...why are you not presenting a case?  Do you have a case against Bdthemag?  If not, why are you voting him before he has answered your questions?

It's not that I think Bd is town and you're looking for a smokescreen, by the way.  I'm actually getting a growing suspicion of him myself, but I'll be damned if I give you some clues.  I want to know why you think he's scum, why you think he's the most LIKELY scum of everyone here, and why you think he's tactically the best one to lynch.  If you don't have a reason to lynch him that you can at least try to spell out (and it goes beyond vague remarks like "scummy behavior" or "lurking"), then it just seems like you're voting him to appear town.

[Vector]

There's precisely two scum players in the game.  That's the standard for newbie setups.

Thus, at least one IC of the three must be town.

[Reverie]

Sorry folks, i've had only access to a phone. I'll get to posting later tonight.

This was a lie, Bdthemag. You may have your reasons, but nevertheless, you have rescinded on your word.

[Vector]

Sorry folks, i've had only access to a phone. I'll get to posting later tonight.

This was a lie, Bdthemag. You may have your reasons, but nevertheless, you have rescinded on your word.

Explain.

[IronyOwl]

Been meaning to do stuff, still can't do stuff.

Apologies.

[Bdthemag]

Long story short, a bunch of shit started randomly happening that I had to deal with. I feel like an ass for not posting, and i'll try to post tonight.

[Vector]

I'm not talking to you, I'm talking about Flandre.

Did you lie about the phone posting, Bdthemag?

[Reverie]

Sorry folks, i've had only access to a phone. I'll get to posting later tonight.

This was a lie, Bdthemag. You may have your reasons, but nevertheless, you have rescinded on your word.

Explain.

He did not post last night, where he said he would. I was a little disappointed, and it was five in the morning, so I might have swung a little too hard at him. Sorry.
The grammar in the latter half of that last sentence has been bothering me all day, besides.

[Vector]

. . .

Yeeeeeah, all right.  Don't accuse people of lying when they don't do what they say they're going to do right on time.  Lurking, maybe.  Putting things off, maybe.  But the word "lie" is extremely charged in mafia games.

[Reverie]

. . .

Yeeeeeah, all right.  Don't accuse people of lying when they don't do what they say they're going to do right on time.  Lurking, maybe.  Putting things off, maybe.  But the word "lie" is extremely charged in mafia games.

I will be careful with that word from now on.

[Urist_McArathos]

There's precisely two scum players in the game.  That's the standard for newbie setups.

Thus, at least one IC of the three must be town.

I thought the "3/3" in the thread title meant there were three mafia, three of which were alive.  My mistake, then.

[Vector]

Oh, nope.  That's the required IC count: two playing, one non-playing.

We just happen to have been gifted Webadict.

[Urist_McArathos]

I see; So it means 7/7 town, 3/3 ICs.  Thanks for the clarification.

[Reverie]

Today was not very busy, but that is not so bad. I finally got around to watching Howl's Moving Castle, and I loved it.
On topic: It is perfect that you are off tomorrow, Urist. If we can get the majority of us in here, I think we can finally give the first day some closure!

[Urist_McArathos]

Indeed; I'll try to do some reading tonight to get better reads on Vector and IronyOwl, then move forward to help close day 1.  We really need to move on to the night phase, or we'll never learn a thing besides how to extend!