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[hemmingjay]

I understand your point about art inviting criticism. The problem is when people who glance at a painting dismiss the work without study. None of us has claimed it to be a great work, but it certainly is worth more of a look than several people are giving it. I can make a video of me using only melee to beat Deus Ex or Call of Duty:MW3 if you like. You can break any game. You can play outside of the design scope to achieve unexpected consequences. In order to make a game inviting to the largest possible contingency they made the first playthrough extremely easy. Was it a good decision for everyone? Definitely not. Was it a good decision for many new players, absolutely.
If you want a game that is punishingly hard from the start try Demon Souls. Not all games need to be catered to us personally to have merit. I hope we can agree on that?

[nenjin]

Thanks fenrif for saving me the trouble.

We don't have to agree with each other, we just have to be reasonable.

Agreed on that. Now show me where I'm being unreasonable.

Finally, someone on my level of thinking.

And someone far above your level of discourse. I may disagree with hemmingjay, but at least he's actually posting, instead of being snide and contributing nothing to the thread but contempt. Shall we go for two rounds of post removals by the Toad, or do you want to actually join this conversation instead of just pissing on it from afar?

If you want a game that is punishingly hard from the start try Demon Souls. Not all games need to be catered to us personally to have merit. I hope we can agree on that?

Sure. But don't tell me to "go outside" because I have an opinion on it. Or "go on my way." Or tell me that I "barely glanced at it" after completing the game and putting the time in I have. You want to talk about being unreasonable, how about being disingenuous? Because the attitude of Diablo fans is that if we aren't fapping over the game, we shouldn't say anything at all. I'm glad your income is so disposable you don't feel the need to question if it was worth the money or not.

I really never thought I'd see the day on B12 when someone essentially calls someone else a nerd to disregard their argument.

[Andir]

I find it hilarious that this game has provided enough entertainment for you to continually fill this thread with disdain for the game.

I can think of a few games that have provided people with entertainment through their disdain for the game.  E.T. on the 2600, Zero Wing ... and many... many more.

[hemmingjay]

I'm not sure when I told you that you should "go outside" or even stated that you should not post your complaints or concerns. I think you may have misconstrued something I said or perhaps I worded something poorly.

I did question if the game was worth the investment and I concluded that I have spent 50hrs playing and 10 hours discussing the game. I don't care what you do for a living, if something compels you to interact for $1 an hour I would suggest it is worth the money. How much time have you put into it? How much do you value your free time and how much do you value your entertainment?

BTW, I have gone on record complaining about the game since beta. I don't think it's a great game, but I would offer an object opinion to anyone inquiring. If they like lootwhoring and button clicking ARPG games as well as theory-craft then I think the game could be a good fit. If they despise grind or can't be bothered with experimenting with equipment and skills then they probably wouldn't be happy.

And if I may add one more comment about the video, yes, Skeleton King is part of the tutorial of the game. That is why the beta gave access to that point. It showcases some initial elements of the game, but is only 1/5th of max level for just one of the classes. Fighting Skeleton King naked takes a long time and is not easy when alone. It should not be misrepresented as easy.

EDIT: I apologize for saying I found it hilarious that you continually fill this thread with disdain for the game. I do not mean any disrespect, but rather am amazed.

[hemmingjay]

I find it hilarious that this game has provided enough entertainment for you to continually fill this thread with disdain for the game.

I can think of a few games that have provided people with entertainment through their disdain for the game.  E.T. on the 2600, Zero Wing ... and many... many more.

We can all agree(those of us who are old enough) that Atari's E.T. was indeed one of the worst debacles in all of media.

[forsaken1111]

Care to watch the nekkid barbarian video? Or is the whole game up to the Skeleton King still part of the tutorial?

That video shows off how you can get 4 people in the game to exploit the stun to stun-lock a boss. By the time one stun is off cooldown the last has not worn off so it is a continuous thing. Blizzard had to choose when balancing to balance the game for singleplayer or multi. Clearly they thought a 4-person barbarian team abusing a stun mechanic was an edge case not worth rebalancing for.

I mean you could do the same thing with four wizards using frost nova... its not amazing or difficult.

[Valid_Dark]

Care to watch the nekkid barbarian video? Or is the whole game up to the Skeleton King still part of the tutorial?

I'd say the Skeleton King is still part of the tutorial,
seeing how it's 1/3 of the way through act 1.

and I"m only playing with a free pass currently, so I only get to play up until the skeleton King,

[SalmonGod]

I have many valid reasons to complain about the game, despite having never bought it because I saw through the formula in half on hour with the beta.  I've continued to talk with people I know about their experiences with the game, read about the details of how the gameplay progresses, watch videos, etc, so I'm well aware of how the whole damn game works and yes everything I thought about the game from the first half hour seems to remain true throughout.  I don't need to hear about how my opinion isn't valid because I didn't give it enough of a chance.  Now that I've covered that base, here's why it's perfectly legitimate for me to be vocally upset about the game.

1.  I expected more of Blizzard.  They are the organization that popularized the genre and have 16 years of experience working with it.  They have probably the most resources to invest in development out of any studio in the world.  It had been roughly 11 years since the last release in the series, and we know that they had been actively developing Diablo 3 for at least 6 of those.  There was every indication possible to believe that this would be a groundbreaking game, and yet not a single aspect of the final product gives me the impression that it was made by people who knew or cared about what they were doing.  No, not even the graphics.

2.  I don't like being pressured into spending time and money on doing something I don't like, just to be able to do something with friends.  When most of your friends are gamers and playing games with them is what you do most nights after work, major multiplayer titles have a distinct effect on your social life.

3.  The success of major AAA titles like this factors very, very heavily into design trends for the entire industry.  Yeah, I can simply choose not to play it, but that doesn't stop the success of the game from bleeding into everything else that I will end up playing from here on.  More games are going to embrace the always online model.  More games are going to feel safe about further dumbing down their game design.  There is more at stake than simply whether or not I am happy with or choose to play this specific game.  It makes a lot of sense from a long-term perspective for me to discourage people from rewarding Blizzard for their behavior.

So I fail to see how it's not legitimate for me to hold these opinions or to be vocal about them.

I'm not trying to ruin anybody's fun or make anyone feel bad for buying or playing the game, but I don't think there's anything wrong with making comment occasionally when a specific of the game design is being discussed or joining in when people are already venting.

[hemmingjay]

Salmon, Fair enough. Your opinion is valid and I shouldn't have stated it as otherwise. Personally, I feel that the trial does not offer anywhere near a proper feel for the nuance or complexity of the game. I understand that you are let down and I wish it wasn't so because it would be great to have another in the game with us. I hope the next game lives up to your expectations. Cheers!

Edit: As to point 3, your desire to discourage others from purchasing the game, without having done so yourself is what ruffles my feathers. It's perfectly reasonable for you to do so, but if I did the same about something you liked I suspect your reaction would be similar. Your agenda is valid and unfortunately is at odds with my own. I hope you can forgive my thoughtless statement.

[SalmonGod]

It's not that big a deal.  I'm not personally offended or anything.  I'm just stating my case.

Edit: As to point 3, your desire to discourage others from purchasing the game, without having done so yourself is what ruffles my feathers. It's perfectly reasonable for you to do so, but if I did the same about something you liked I suspect your reaction would be similar.

I would agree if it were just gameplay stuff that I didn't like.  I mean if I just thought the game wasn't fun and that was it, I would let it go and probably never bother anybody about it.  If I'm in the minority for not enjoying something, then that's my problem.  It's the anti-consumer stuff that I think really needs to be opposed -- the unnecessary always online requirement, the predatory and restrictive EULA (especially making modding illegal), and to a lesser extent (I admit it has both pros and cons) the RMAH, which just goes to a ridiculous extent trying to milk as much money out of the game as possible.

[nenjin]

For me, I'm not trying to dissuade people from buying the game. I just want them to know what's in store for them as I see it.

And hemmingjay, I appreciate you bringing the discourse to a civil level. I'll endeavor to do the same.

That video shows off how you can get 4 people in the game to exploit the stun to stun-lock a boss. By the time one stun is off cooldown the last has not worn off so it is a continuous thing. Blizzard had to choose when balancing to balance the game for singleplayer or multi. Clearly they thought a 4-person barbarian team abusing a stun mechanic was an edge case not worth rebalancing for.

Sorry, I don't agree. Arguably in a game like Diablo, a MP "exploit" is the exact kind of thing they need to clamp down on. But more to the point, the game is so poorly balanced in normal mode that, even without stun locking every single mob, a naked player can play all the way through to SK not even engaging the core mechanic of the game: gear.

So I'm still really confused why some people hand wave that simply because there are three more difficulties. I don't think you can excuse several hours of terrible, thoughtless balance because there are several more hours of (the exact same thing) in store for people. It's not like we're talking about the tedium or learning curve of DF; we're talking about a dirt simple game format that failed to even properly balance itself at the lowest level of play. That seems like something that's worth complaining about, in the least, because it's something I would have liked to know before I purchased the game. And not just "well the beta was easy" but "you cannot possibly fail in normal mode unless you deliberately try to do so."

[fenrif]

If the first act (or indeed first entire difficulty, as I've heard some people claim) of a game is the tutorial, then I'd argue that's bad game design. This isn't really something specific to D3 though, tutorials in general is something the games industry can't seem to get right. If I'm playing random FPS 437 I don't really want it telling me that WASD is move, and making me look up down left and right to make sure I have a firm grasp of how mouse-based-aiming works.

If you want a game that is punishingly hard from the start try Demon Souls. Not all games need to be catered to us personally to have merit. I hope we can agree on that?

I mean yeah, obviously not every game should cater to everyone. But one of the defining factors of the medium is player choice. Difficulty is one of the things that seems like it's pretty easy to let the player make the choice about. I don't think the problem here is "the start of the game/tutorial is too easy." It's "everyone is forced to play through an extremely easy tutorial section/difficulty level before they can get to the one they want." Lots of games have very easy difficulties, but people don't complain about them being too easy because if they want a challenge they can just play on hard or whatever the higher difficulty is called. It seems like regressive game design, removing innovations that became standard in the medium decades ago with very little rhyme or reason explained to the player.

[nenjin]

And it's not like we had a chance to opt out, qualify for harder modes or anything, or that it was even a limited tutorial. It's the whole first mode of the game. Why a game like Diablo 3 needed an 8 hour-tutorial, no one has yet adequately explained to me. It's just sort of a reason given to excuse the lack of balance.

Most of what I'm feeling stems from the fact I bought the game despite a format I loathed, because I told myself "Hey, at least the game play will make up for it, will make up for me making a compromised decision and becoming another sales figure for a future I don't endorse."

And so far, for me, the game hasn't honestly made up for it and has even exacerbated how I feel about the whole thing.

[Alkhemia]

But Demon soul and Dark soul are easy I never did understand how people have some much trouble with those games,
but back to D3, D2 is one of the easy Diablolike I played but there all Easy it just the genre really.

[hemmingjay]

I agree, it's mind boggling why they made the point of entry into the game so very simple. I understand that there must have been discussions about the fact that many gamers have never played D1 or 2 but I don't think this was the best solution. I suspect it was to extend the gameplay in addition to easing new players.

On another note, I signed the petition for the European players who are unhappy with the lack of access to the game. Always on is still awful.