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Author Topic: The Debt Ceiling Deal... ing  (Read 25099 times)

mainiac

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Re: The Debt Ceiling Deal... ing
« Reply #270 on: July 25, 2011, 11:50:35 pm »

There's a part of me that really wants to see this train wreck go all the way into a meltdown.  I spent day after day in the months before the last election going around begging people to vote and people just didn't give a shit.  They just dont understand that when you abdicate your role as voting citizen, bad shit happens.  Even though they were angry they didn't inform themselves and go out and vote for change, they just sat their asses at home on election day and we had horrible turnout.  And surprise surprise, they got the congress they voted for.

Rationally I know that this crises would be really bad but there's a part of me that wants to believe that maybe this time people will wake up.  Maybe a jolt will flush the apathy out of the system.  But that's just a pipe dream.  If this goes bad nothing about the electorate is going to change.  People still wont care, they'll be angry but they wont realize its their own goddamn fault.  But a part of me really, really wants to see a change.
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"Don't tell me what you value. Show me your budget and I will tell you what you value"
« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
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PyroDesu

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Re: The Debt Ceiling Deal... ing
« Reply #271 on: July 25, 2011, 11:57:11 pm »

@mainiac:I agree. Part of me wants to see the meltdown too. It's like a watching a train wreck: you don't want to, but you can't look away. As for not voting: I can't say anything, because I'm not allowed to vote because I'm 15.
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counting

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Re: The Debt Ceiling Deal... ing
« Reply #272 on: July 26, 2011, 03:56:29 am »

We are 50% over budget.

...In the middle of the worst economic slump in 70 years.  In an economic slump, tax revenues fall and automatic payments rise.  Using now to assess a deficit is like diagnosing me with vertigo when I am drunk as a skunk.  Of course I'm staggering around now, but in the morning I'm gonna be sober.  If the economy was back to normal, our deficit would be manageable by just waiting for "temporary" deficits to expire.  Just look at the CBO current law assessments sometime.  No really, go do that right now:
http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/115xx/doc11579/06-30-LTBO.pdf 

Look at the chart on the cover, it compares what the current law says and what we expect future congress to do.
Look at page 5 (page 5 by the numbers at the bottom) in this document, it has both what the law says will happen and what the CBO expects congress to do in the future.

The "current law says" aint great, but it shows that the deficit is in now way out of our control.  The deficit is entirely due to  "temporary" laws like the bush tax cuts and the current economic downturn.

As for people saying higher taxes are the problem: how's that supply side workin' for ya?  We need a leaner more efficient government because then we are getting more for our money.  But it just aint so that higher taxes are killing growth.

One thing I learned about projection is that they always compare the best with a worst scenario to make the result look good. But I am not trying to say that this projection is over-optimistic, but the truth is if you look at the table 1-1, you will see the "actual" and "projection" line clearly make a small hill on the expenditure line.

And by compare the 2000 expenditure level of 16% federal of GDP with about 24% GDP expenditure in 2009 (The 2010 data has not yet included in the 2010 report), and now we are at 2011, let's see what really happened in 2010 in the this year's new congressional report. And you can see, the spending didn't went down as the old projection expected, but stay at 23.8% of GDP, since things doesn't go as plan, and many off-budget spending happens. And the original expected expenditure should go down from the peak 2009, but the projection of expenditure in 2011 this year actually climbing back to 24.3%. What government planning to spend is one thing, but the reality is things do go south in the future. If the market losing faith in the debt right now, the future expenditure may increase further more (raise the "off-budget" again), since borrowing will have extra cost.

That's what I am worried about an aggressive policy may lead. (Like the projection of government expenditure policy continue it's expending on % of GDP, to stay at the level near 25%). The expenditure habit will become normal, and with more and more expenditures are NOT cut back with the support of more government revenues. Politicians will likely not try any passive policy in the future at all, until the aggressive policy leading the future expenditures into disasters. But I think they do realize the problems and possible outcomes now. Started planning to cut back the expenditure level to 19% level from 2012. Only if things all going as they planned. (And the same groups of politicians still running the congress and house, which I highly doubt that.)

Projections are just a guild line of what people's intentions are, not what actually might happens. And I believe the current aggressive plans to keep up high expenditure and increase tax revenue to maintain it will only add fuel into the fire. Giving future politicians reasons to spend more. Thus the running away deficit will keep rolling. But it's only my personal opinions. And I strongly believe that we can't defeat the recession by just keeping government expenditures, and it will only lead to sink into further deficit and debts, create a bigger storm waiting.

P.S And I do agree to reform tax should take away the temporary tax cut measure, but in the mean time also remove the increasing boost in insurance taxes. And maintain the revenue level. Letting the income and business tax to cover the social security spending, not just redistribute wealth amount general populations. (collecting most insurance taxes from middle class, and spending them on the poor, letting the rifts between mass middle-low income with the upper income groups even larger.)
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Africa

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Re: The Debt Ceiling Deal... ing
« Reply #273 on: July 26, 2011, 09:02:53 am »

Yeah, Americans deserve a meltdown because of the dickheads we elected knowing they would do stuff like this, but I'd kind of rather have the economy be stable and me have a job and not end up living on the streets stealing loaves of bread to live on.
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RedKing

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Re: The Debt Ceiling Deal... ing
« Reply #274 on: July 26, 2011, 09:34:58 am »

I swear to the gods (and I mean ALL of them), that if the US actually does default, I'm packing up shop and finding another country. I've had had this lingering feeling of "imperial decline" since...well, probably since the Iraq War started. But now it feels entirely more imminent and for more intractable reasons (dysfunctional government as opposed to imperial overreach).
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Nadaka

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Re: The Debt Ceiling Deal... ing
« Reply #275 on: July 26, 2011, 09:40:48 am »

I swear to the gods (and I mean ALL of them), that if the US actually does default, I'm packing up shop and finding another country. I've had had this lingering feeling of "imperial decline" since...well, probably since the Iraq War started. But now it feels entirely more imminent and for more intractable reasons (dysfunctional government as opposed to imperial overreach).

I would consider Canada, but I would really really miss these Florida beaches. Are there any nice semi-tropical countries with decent governments? New Zealand maybe?
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RedKing

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Re: The Debt Ceiling Deal... ing
« Reply #276 on: July 26, 2011, 09:43:26 am »

I swear to the gods (and I mean ALL of them), that if the US actually does default, I'm packing up shop and finding another country. I've had had this lingering feeling of "imperial decline" since...well, probably since the Iraq War started. But now it feels entirely more imminent and for more intractable reasons (dysfunctional government as opposed to imperial overreach).

I would consider Canada, but I would really really miss these Florida beaches. Are there any nice semi-tropical countries with decent governments? New Zealand maybe?
Very difficult to get in. You basically need to have a job sponsor or family there. And there's not a whole lot of job openings, unless you know something about horses. If you're a stablehand or vet or horse groomer, there's plenty of work last I checked.
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Heron TSG

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Re: The Debt Ceiling Deal... ing
« Reply #277 on: July 26, 2011, 09:44:06 am »

New Zealand looks warm enough, Australia too if you don't mind your life being turned upside down. Japan has the same latitude as Florida and California, so if you can find a place there with a lot of English speakers...
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penguinofhonor

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Re: The Debt Ceiling Deal... ing
« Reply #278 on: July 26, 2011, 09:48:53 am »

Yeah, Americans deserve a meltdown because of the dickheads we elected knowing they would do stuff like this, but I'd kind of rather have the economy be stable and me have a job and not end up living on the streets stealing loaves of bread to live on.

Yeah, as much of an interesting train wreck as it would be, and maybe it would finally end the political careers of some of the parties responsible, I and a few other people kind of live here.

I doubt it'll actually happen. I'd bet a ton of money on it, honestly. If they didn't shut the government down this spring even though everyone said they would, they're not going to do anything now. The republicans are going to have to compromise, but right now they're waiting until the right moment. If they wait enough, they should be able to get this closer to what they want. But the democrats know that if the republicans wait too long, disaster happens and the republicans stop having poliocal careers.
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PTTG??

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Re: The Debt Ceiling Deal... ing
« Reply #279 on: July 26, 2011, 09:56:24 am »

There's a part of me that really wants to see this train wreck go all the way into a meltdown...

It was a nuclear powered train?

Anyway, We are now 6 days away from the default, of which four are weekdays. If George Washington emerged from his crypt and wrote up a perfectly acceptable deal, how long would it take for that to be put into place?
« Last Edit: July 26, 2011, 10:04:04 am by PTTG?? »
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RedKing

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Re: The Debt Ceiling Deal... ing
« Reply #280 on: July 26, 2011, 10:06:41 am »

Here's something that slipped completely under my radar: A proposal to create a new "Super Congress", composed of 12 members (6 D, 6 R, 6 from the Senate, 6 from the House) which would fast-track legislation and make it unamendable by mere mortal Congresscritters.

I....I'm not sure how I feel about this. On the one hand, it definitely could help keep asshat House members from delaying and sidetracking crucial legislation by trying to kill it with poison pills or load it up on pork. It could have allowed some reasonable compromise on the debt ceiling to hit the floor by now, for instance.

On the other hand....it's essentially creating an oligarchy within the legislature. Any bill that the Super Congress signed off on would be untouchable. Which means that lobbyists now have a much narrower basket of people they really need to bribe. Get those 12 on your side, get a friendly Congresscritter to introduce a bill to your industry's liking, under a friendly name like the "Save Baby Seals Act of 2011", then get it fast-tracked. The rest of Congress is then left with voting for an industry-friendly bill, or facing the next election with their opponent able to run ads saying "My opponent voted AGAINST the Save Baby Seals Act. Do we really need to say more?"
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GlyphGryph

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Re: The Debt Ceiling Deal... ing
« Reply #281 on: July 26, 2011, 10:07:23 am »

Fuck no, New Zealand is right out, there are only limited spots and those spots are /mine/
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mainiac

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Re: The Debt Ceiling Deal... ing
« Reply #282 on: July 26, 2011, 10:37:20 am »

One thing I learned about projection is that they always compare the best with a worst scenario to make the result look good. But I am not trying to say that this projection is over-optimistic, but the truth is if you look at the table 1-1, you will see the "actual" and "projection" line clearly make a small hill on the expenditure line.

Again, please read the CBO report.  This is not a projection.  This is an assessment from CURRENT LAW.  They have the alternate scenario baseline as well.  However the current law baseline is based on CURRENT LAW.  The only major assumption besides current law is that annual GDP growth over the long term is an unremarkable 2.5%.  We aren't hitting that now, yes, but it would be very surprising indeed if we failed to hit that long term.
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Ancient Babylonian god of RAEG
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"Don't tell me what you value. Show me your budget and I will tell you what you value"
« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
mainiac is always a little sarcastic, at least.

counting

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Re: The Debt Ceiling Deal... ing
« Reply #283 on: July 26, 2011, 10:58:42 am »

One thing I learned about projection is that they always compare the best with a worst scenario to make the result look good. But I am not trying to say that this projection is over-optimistic, but the truth is if you look at the table 1-1, you will see the "actual" and "projection" line clearly make a small hill on the expenditure line.

Again, please read the CBO report.  This is not a projection.  This is an assessment from CURRENT LAW.  They have the alternate scenario baseline as well.  However the current law baseline is based on CURRENT LAW.  The only major assumption besides current law is that annual GDP growth over the long term is an unremarkable 2.5%.  We aren't hitting that now, yes, but it would be very surprising indeed if we failed to hit that long term.

5th page - Preface
This Congressional Budget Office (CBO) report examines the pressures on the federal budget by presenting the agency’s projections of federal spending and revenues over the coming decades. ...
« Last Edit: July 26, 2011, 11:00:14 am by counting »
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Currency is not excessive, but a necessity.
The stark assumption:
Individuals trade with each other only through the intermediation of specialist traders called: shops.
Nelson and Winter:
The challenge to an evolutionary formation is this: it must provide an analysis that at least comes close to matching the power of the neoclassical theory to predict and illuminate the macro-economic patterns of growth

ed boy

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Re: The Debt Ceiling Deal... ing
« Reply #284 on: July 26, 2011, 11:01:15 am »

Here's something that slipped completely under my radar: A proposal to create a new "Super Congress", composed of 12 members (6 D, 6 R, 6 from the Senate, 6 from the House) which would fast-track legislation and make it unamendable by mere mortal Congresscritters.

I....I'm not sure how I feel about this. On the one hand, it definitely could help keep asshat House members from delaying and sidetracking crucial legislation by trying to kill it with poison pills or load it up on pork. It could have allowed some reasonable compromise on the debt ceiling to hit the floor by now, for instance.

On the other hand....it's essentially creating an oligarchy within the legislature. Any bill that the Super Congress signed off on would be untouchable. Which means that lobbyists now have a much narrower basket of people they really need to bribe. Get those 12 on your side, get a friendly Congresscritter to introduce a bill to your industry's liking, under a friendly name like the "Save Baby Seals Act of 2011", then get it fast-tracked. The rest of Congress is then left with voting for an industry-friendly bill, or facing the next election with their opponent able to run ads saying "My opponent voted AGAINST the Save Baby Seals Act. Do we really need to say more?"
There is also another problem with that. It would legally ensure the two party system for an indefinite period of time. If one party starts to lose support, then this would not be properly reflected in the government. In addition, it would provide yet another difficulty for other political parties.
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