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Author Topic: The Debt Ceiling Deal... ing  (Read 25226 times)

Phmcw

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Re: The Debt Ceiling Deal... ing
« Reply #135 on: July 20, 2011, 03:40:34 pm »

If the market stop trusting US debt, it may stop using the dollar as standard unit of currency.
If that happen, US economy die. Or at least it's what I heard.
It come from the fact that US trade deficit could not be sustained without the dollar as standard.

Actually, without the Greek crisis, it may already have happened.
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nenjin

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Re: The Debt Ceiling Deal... ing
« Reply #136 on: July 20, 2011, 03:45:21 pm »

Quote
If the market stop trusting US debt, it may stop using the dollar as standard unit of currency.
If that happen, US economy die. Or at least it's what I heard.
It come from the fact that US trade deficit could not be sustained without the dollar as standard.

Otherwise known as that thing we said is going to happen and the Republicans were too busy screaming "Never give up, never surrender" to care about.
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Phmcw

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Re: The Debt Ceiling Deal... ing
« Reply #137 on: July 20, 2011, 03:50:00 pm »

Not a bad position, because it could not be allowed to happen. So Obama will be forced to give up or to raise the debt ceiling himself.
And I bet he'll take that as an excuse to give up. You've voted en masse for a left wing president, and will have the most corporation friendly budget ever.
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Re: The Debt Ceiling Deal... ing
« Reply #138 on: July 20, 2011, 03:57:54 pm »

Not a bad position, because it could not be allowed to happen. So Obama will be forced to give up or to raise the debt ceiling himself.
And I bet he'll take that as an excuse to give up. You've voted en masse for a left wing president, and will have the most corporation friendly budget ever.

Who's this left wing president I keep hearing about? The only president I know of is the one who approves of torture, championed a republican-written health care bill, continues the drug war (and the various other wars), and refuses to prosecute corporate criminals.
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Nadaka

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Re: The Debt Ceiling Deal... ing
« Reply #139 on: July 20, 2011, 04:00:05 pm »

I really don't know what to say.

I am a patriot and I love America.

I am literally shaking in rage right now.

These tea partiers and republican fucks in the house are traitors.

I am not exaggerating.
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RedKing

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Re: The Debt Ceiling Deal... ing
« Reply #140 on: July 20, 2011, 04:04:04 pm »

Has to do with maintaining currency reserves and the denominating of commodities like oil. To put it simply, you have to buy oil in US dollars, because that's what OPEC prices it in. If you're Germany, and you want to buy oil (and you do), you keep a stock of US dollars on hand to buy oil, so you're not subject to the vagaries of the exchange rate. Then you trade on the currency market for more US dollars to replenish your supply. In short, the dollar is artificially propped up on the exchange markets because of dollar-denominated real goods, independent of its value as a currency.

This is why when OPEC has made rumblings in the past of moving to denominating oil in Euros or in a basket of currencies (or even in a new currency that would be traded on the exchange markets), it was seen as provocative.

What happens is that if the dollar starts plummeting and other countries have reason to believe that it will continue plummeting, they're going to dump all the dollars they have in reserve, because:

A. They can buy them back later for cheaper, and in a way if they don't take advantage of the fall, they're screwing themselves. Example: YOu have $100 in US reserves, which is worth 100 Foobucks (hypothetical currency). The dollar plummets, so that eventually $100 is only worth 25 Foobucks. The real-world price of oil is fairly inelastic, save for speculation, so a barrel of oil might shoot up from $100/barrel to $400/barrel. If you hang onto your $100 you started with, your 100 Foobuck investment only buys you 1/4th of a barrel of oil now. If you sold it off and got your Foobucks back as soon as the fall started, you can then buy back $400 for the same 100 Foobucks, and still get the same 1 barrel of oil.

B. If the dollar were to plummet that precipitously (and that's an extreme example), it's likely that OPEC would abandon dollar denomination and move to something more stable. The Euro's not particularly hot right now either, so maybe the British pound or the yen? Or the oft-discussed Petrodollar? The value of the Chinese yuan is also pegged to the dollar, and although it would make Chinese exports ridiculously cheap and popular, it would also kill the PRC's purchasing power and cause soaring domestic inflation in imported materials and goods. So a precipitous drop make cause China to unhook the yuan from the dollar, which would contribute to an even steeper plummet for the dollar. Basically, no one outside the US is going to want to hang on to US dollars if the market deems them not worth the paper they're printed on.

Now, the above is all things that COULD happen, certainly not WILL happen. It would take a perfect storm of monetary policy shifts and market confidence failures to bring all that about. But the potential is terrifying. You know those stories about how a loaf of bread in Weimar Germany cost 10 million marks? Yeah, that kind of terrifying. (Incidentally, while Googling for the rough figure to use there, I noticed a slew of sites selling silver and gold all cite the loaf of bread thing, usually with massively overinflated figures like 430 billion marks...fear sells.)
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Re: The Debt Ceiling Deal... ing
« Reply #141 on: July 20, 2011, 04:11:10 pm »

Quote
You've voted en masse for a left wing president, and will have the most corporation friendly budget ever.

I didn't vote for the party that held the entire country hostage on the threat of "that thing that can't be allowed to happen."

And I'm not entirely convinced it will be more corporate-friendly than the Bush era. If it ends up that way because of the compromise that comes out of it, again, it's because the Know Nothings put a gun to our collective heads and screamed they don't care about the consequences when they pull the trigger. The only way the Southern Democrats would have stayed in the Union is a unilateral endorsement of slavery with specific amendments saying it can never changed or amended in the constitution. That is the level of compromise I feel like today's Republicans want everyone else to swallow in order for them to care about the rest of us.

Whatever else happens, I'll remember who were the ones that said "Let it burn." And I'm sure quite a few others will too.
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dragonshardz

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Re: The Debt Ceiling Deal... ing
« Reply #142 on: July 20, 2011, 04:17:50 pm »

I really don't know what to say.

I am a patriot and I love America.

I am literally shaking in rage right now.

These tea partiers and republican fucks in the house are traitors.

I am not exaggerating.

So...you're a Democrat, then?

Personally, I'm not surprised that this country is going down the shitter. Our politicians care more about getting their pet projects done and keeping their rich friends rich than they care about the common man and the general welfare. Nothing ever really gets done by the government and the public is 90% idiot mouth breathers.

I'm pissed off, and bitter, and I want to do something about all this shit but I have no idea where to begin.

Aklyon

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Re: The Debt Ceiling Deal... ing
« Reply #143 on: July 20, 2011, 04:43:34 pm »

No, he's a Patriotist, since all he said was 'am a patriot'
Theres probably not a real party (with that exact name, at least) called that, but it would be closer than the other side of the same damn coin.
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Nadaka

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Re: The Debt Ceiling Deal... ing
« Reply #144 on: July 20, 2011, 04:50:19 pm »

...

So...you're a Democrat, then?

Personally, I'm not surprised that this country is going down the shitter. Our politicians care more about getting their pet projects done and keeping their rich friends rich than they care about the common man and the general welfare. Nothing ever really gets done by the government and the public is 90% idiot mouth breathers.

I'm pissed off, and bitter, and I want to do something about all this shit but I have no idea where to begin.

I am not a democrat. I am an American patriot. I am a liberal and a progressive. I believe in justice, honor and compassion. I want to raise taxes. I want to balance the budget. I want to enhance personal liberty. I want to provide a basic safety net for the downtrodden and provide for the security of us all. And I believe in amendment #2 is just as important as the others. I want to turn the economy around. I want America to live up to its ideals.

There is no party that represents me. Democrats are at best the lesser of lovecraftian horrors intent on eating our soul, except that it is fully willing to abandon its few principals and meet the other horrors half way to the maw of oblivion.

That was probably way to "colorful".
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dragonshardz

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Re: The Debt Ceiling Deal... ing
« Reply #145 on: July 20, 2011, 05:21:02 pm »

I am not a democrat. I am an American patriot. I am a liberal and a progressive. I believe in justice, honor and compassion. I want to raise taxes. I want to balance the budget. I want to enhance personal liberty. I want to provide a basic safety net for the downtrodden and provide for the security of us all. And I believe in amendment #2 is just as important as the others. I want to turn the economy around. I want America to live up to its ideals.

There is no party that represents me. Democrats are at best the lesser of lovecraftian horrors intent on eating our soul, except that it is fully willing to abandon its few principals and meet the other horrors half way to the maw of oblivion.

That was probably way to "colorful".

Damn the Internet and its lack of an easy way to denote sarcasm/facetiousness! I was being sarcastic/facetious in the first sentence.

freeformschooler

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Re: The Debt Ceiling Deal... ing
« Reply #146 on: July 20, 2011, 05:28:03 pm »

There is no party that represents me. Democrats are at best the lesser of lovecraftian horrors intent on eating our soul, except that it is fully willing to abandon its few principals and meet the other horrors half way to the maw of oblivion.

That was probably way to "colorful".

No, no. That was actually the perfect amount of color. Bravo.

I used to be a Democrat too but I don't like any of the party nonsense any more.
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mainiac

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Re: The Debt Ceiling Deal... ing
« Reply #147 on: July 20, 2011, 06:21:51 pm »

To people who say that the democrats are sellouts here I think they are underestimating the severe consequences of what a default would mean.  A government shutdown would mean a double dip recession putting unemployment into the teens and put the global economy into the worst straits since the Great Depression.  An actual default would put unemployment into the 20s, lead to a wave of bankruptcies of both governments and corporations and give us Great Depression 2.0.  Hell, might even lead to WWIII while your at it when you look at the geopolitical uncertainty it would unleash.

I think there are numerous boneheaded political mistakes that the democrats made.  However they are offering so much because the danger is very, very real.  The Tea Party is completely divorced from sanity in every way and deserves the deepest scorn.  But however much you might despise the democratic spinelessness, you need to realize that the stakes are very, very high.

And remember, these negotiations are all based on cuts over the next ten years.  If the democrats win back the house next election, the cuts to important matters can be fixed.
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
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counting

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Re: The Debt Ceiling Deal... ing
« Reply #148 on: July 20, 2011, 11:57:34 pm »

Everyone here agrees and is aware of the consequence of default occurs. But has anyone knows what's the current plans on both side about "How MUCH" debt ceiling should be raised? From what I am gathering that at least one plan involved 2.4 trillion raised. And I don't know if there are any major political voices making effort just about debt repaying plans to be heard on the media without tightening it with debt ceiling fuzz?

All those cries going on from 2008 of only tens billions budge cut without new revenue plan are jokes in my opinions, since debt rising at the speed of trillions. I think they just cried out for the attention and elections only. And the fact is I think no one dare to look at a decent plan for future expenditure or tax policies altogether. It needs a good budget redefined right now. (not just something simply as "it's wrong to spend first, and worry about debt later" slogan). With only 2.4 trillion limit raise, it can just sustain 1 year+, 2 years top, if current expenditure policies doesn't change. I am afraid people will keep going on like everything is usual and fine AFTER the debt ceiling is raised, but those opinions for reasons are hijacked by people who just want attention only, with no desires of actually fulfill or making a plan.

It's funny and sad to see some politicians "against" budget cutting back in 2008, 2009. Then again today against budge limit unless there will be budget cutting. (That's a "TRUE" politician  8) indeed)
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mainiac

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Re: The Debt Ceiling Deal... ing
« Reply #149 on: July 21, 2011, 08:32:18 am »

It's quite funny how you put me down and then go into asking an incredibly basic question.  Oh wait, it's not funny, it's annoying and obnoxious.
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Ancient Babylonian god of RAEG
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"Don't tell me what you value. Show me your budget and I will tell you what you value"
« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
mainiac is always a little sarcastic, at least.
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