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Author Topic: The Debt Ceiling Deal... ing  (Read 25117 times)

PTTG??

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The Debt Ceiling Deal... ing
« on: July 15, 2011, 12:00:20 pm »

The US is deadlocked over raising the debt ceiling. If we fail to pass a motion on it in time, the whole country suffers. The republicans are demanding a balanced budget (fair enough), but they want it without a single cent of new revenue, not even by ending tax breaks (impossible. No, seriously, it is not possible without ending all wars right now, literally decimating the armed forces, and ending medicaid). A democrat has proposed a last-resort solution of neither cutting nor taxing, but instead passing the authority to raise the ceiling to the president, with some oversight.

Mark my words: This is a strategy designed to give both sides what they want: more power for the president. Not secret police powers or other conspiracy nonsense, just a small measure more economic power.

At the last minute, the republicans will vote for the compromise granting the president the power to raise the debt limit. This will make them seem reasonable without making it look like they've sacrificed anyone, make the democrats look like heroes, and gives the president the power to, with minimal checks, raise the debt ceiling.

It's not necessarily a bad thing, it's not a conspiracy, it's not even going to be secret.

The problem is, this will allow us to continue on without debate. It will allow the government to completely ignore the proposed cuts (making the democrats look good) and keep all the tax breaks (making the republicans look good).

If you look at the other proposals in the cold light of rationality, you will find no other deals which both sides would find advantageous.

It's also the worst of the deals for the country, of course. It's just putting off the default until later, when it will be worse.
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freeformschooler

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Re: The Debt Ceiling Deal... ing
« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2011, 12:04:19 pm »

It's also the worst of the deals for the country, of course. It's just putting off the default until later, when it will be worse.

This is what I'm scared of. I don't claim to know much about economics (haven't taken that class yet!) but it seems here like, in the US, eventually something is just going to come crashing down. It's just gonna get worse and worse when it happens if we raise the debt ceiling.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2011, 12:16:07 pm by freeformschooler »
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Heron TSG

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Re: The Debt Ceiling Deal... ing
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2011, 12:11:52 pm »

We seriously need to end those tax cuts. The lack of money is bleeding us dry.
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Re: The Debt Ceiling Deal... ing
« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2011, 12:12:54 pm »

I believe that 'something' is called bankruptcy. And when the USA goes bankrupt... *shudder*
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freeformschooler

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Re: The Debt Ceiling Deal... ing
« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2011, 12:16:40 pm »

I'm just gonna flee to canada and live off the land and fix computers for people.
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timotheus

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Re: The Debt Ceiling Deal... ing
« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2011, 12:17:44 pm »

I am pretty worried about this as well. I think the best way to fix this is by doing both, eliminating the tax breaks that are in place, and setting them back to the levels they were at in the 90s (even maybe 80s), and reducing our military juggernaut to something that resembles a defensive force.

That would go a long way. I want to spend more time on this, with actual numbers involved. :)
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EmperorNuthulu

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Re: The Debt Ceiling Deal... ing
« Reply #6 on: July 15, 2011, 12:19:06 pm »

I believe that 'something' is called bankruptcy. And when the USA goes bankrupt... *shudder*

 All us other countries are already planning celebrations, we've all made a deal with china to either get a state or a town at least.
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Levi

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Re: The Debt Ceiling Deal... ing
« Reply #7 on: July 15, 2011, 12:19:13 pm »

I'm just gonna flee to canada and live off the land and fix computers for people.

Unfortunately Canada's economy is actually tied pretty closely with yours. 

So get yer debt fixed before you collapse our economy! :)

Our debt is pretty bad as well though so we can hardly point fingers.

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Aqizzar

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Re: The Debt Ceiling Deal... ing
« Reply #8 on: July 15, 2011, 12:37:15 pm »

I knew this thread was coming eventually.  I hope this makes something like sense, I've been watching the process pretty close.

Mark my words: This is a strategy designed to give both sides what they want: more power for the president. Not secret police powers or other conspiracy nonsense, just a small measure more economic power.

At the last minute, the republicans will vote for the compromise granting the president the power to raise the debt limit. This will make them seem reasonable without making it look like they've sacrificed anyone, make the democrats look like heroes, and gives the president the power to, with minimal checks, raise the debt ceiling.

I know this is going to sound ludicrous, but I think you're reading too much into this.  Allow me to offer the more temporal explanation.  Who's right?  Who knows, but this is what I'm getting out of it.

There's a lot of things the Republican party used to be able to stand for, and several that it still does.  The only one that the Republican leadership in Congress, i.e. John Boehner and Mitch McConnell, are willing and able to hang their hat on is "no more taxes, ever".  Boehner especially has to hold to this, because there's a lot of Republican congressmen aiming for his seat as Speaker of the House.  But they, as the intelligent men that they are, can recognize mathematical reality.

The mathematical reality is something has to change.  As you said, you can chop all discretionary spending out of the federal budget, and the government will still not be making enough money to cover its legal expenses - Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, and perhaps most importantly the interest on the debt and treasury bonds.  The debt keeps rising, and now you've got Moody's saying that treasury bonds may not be AAA anymore, mostly because they're terrified of this new Republican Congress treating the debt ceiling as a bargaining chip.  So at least one of four things had to happen-
1) The debt ceiling is blown, and the economy goes nuclear.
2) Massive cuts to obligatory social programs (Medicare, etc.)
3) Tax increases somewhere, in removal of exemptions if not in actual rates.
4) Debt ceiling is raised, and the serious fight is postponed for another day.

Despite the prognostications of Michelle Bachmann, #1 would not be good for anybody, least of all the Republican party or its leadership.  This has become abundantly clear as Moody's has started threatening the rating-reduction even if the ceiling isn't blown, and the business base of the party has finally started whispering in their ear, "What in God's name are you doing?"

#2 and 3 however can work to their advantage, because they're all unpopular, and #4 of course just gives everyone a chance to screw around again.  But you have to think about it from the position of the people actually in the meeting room, Boehner and McConnell again.  Obama originally offered them a proposal that was about 3:1 spending cuts versus tax increases, the same sort of deal Reagan, Bush #1, and Clinton did.  They said "fuck your taxes".  The deal became 5:1, they said "fuck your taxes".  So Obama reminded them that the ceiling will be raised somehow or the economy will go through the floor, and their pollsters reminded them that a good half the general population still blames the country's problems on the Republican party, and would blame them if anything worse happens.  And from the other side, they've got their "Tea Party" deal with the devil, saying just talking about increasing "Obama's" debt ceiling is the only concession they should ever make (a rhetorical flourish that insults the intelligence of anyone who hears it, but I digress).

If Boehner agreed to anything Obama proposed, including raising the ceiling at all, he could lose his Speakership.  If Medicare or Social Security are cut, a whole lot of Republicans could lose their seats in the next election, as has already happened in one special election thanks to them wearing Paul Ryan on their sleeves.  If Boehner or McConnell agreed to any deal that increased anyone's taxes in any way, form, or fashion (listening to them defend the tax credit for buying private jets was a very nice dessert), Grover Norquist and David Koch will see them excommunicated from the party.

So they punted.  They surrendered all responsibility to the President by more or less agreeing to a roundabout legislative tango that will see the debt ceiling raised with no riders or preconditions.  It might make them look spineless, even childish, but it saves them from being liars by technically preserving their pledge to never raise taxes or debts, since it won't be their fault, right?  And it leaves them free to blame anything that happens afterwards on the President, since it will technically be his fault, whatever "it" may be.  And now you've got McConnell saying the plan he wants will call for making sure the ceiling increase is small enough that will have to be raised three times before November, 2012.  I.E., milking that base-inspiring cow for all its worth in time for the next election, and preserving the "uncertainty" in the money community that he oh so loves to harp about as the reason the economy still sucks in Obama's third year in office.

That to me is far scarier than any open-conspiracy business about increasing Executive power or whatever.  That the fate of the fundamental bedrock of the nation's and ultimately the world's economy is subject to the two-year election cycle gamesmanship of a bunch of serial egomaniacs.  I almost hope it's conspiratorial, at least then it would mean there's a longterm vision at the helm.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2011, 12:41:33 pm by Aqizzar »
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PTTG??

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Re: The Debt Ceiling Deal... ing
« Reply #9 on: July 15, 2011, 12:58:59 pm »

That to me is far scarier than any open-conspiracy business about increasing Executive power or whatever.  That the fate of the fundamental bedrock of the nation's and ultimately the world's economy is subject to the two-year election cycle gamesmanship of a bunch of serial egomaniacs.  I almost hope it's conspiratorial, at least then it would mean there's a longterm vision at the helm.

I shouldn't have said conspiracy. What I meant was that moving the debt ceiling limit to the president would be a means to the end of finding a politically easy solution to the crisis without violating party orthodoxy.

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Mark my words: This is a strategy designed to give both sides what they want: more power for the president. Not secret police powers or other conspiracy nonsense, just a small measure more economic power.
On the other hand, rereading that, I'm kind of surprised I didn't put 'sheeple' in there somewhere. I guess I got caught up in the /r/politics vibe.
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Aklyon

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Re: The Debt Ceiling Deal... ing
« Reply #10 on: July 15, 2011, 01:36:45 pm »

/r/politics has a vibe?
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DJ

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Re: The Debt Ceiling Deal... ing
« Reply #11 on: July 15, 2011, 04:27:58 pm »

Doesn't America have like the lowest taxes in the world? Countries that are nothing but tax resorts excluded, of course. I seriously don't understand why is it such a huge issue to cover the budget holes with some more taxes. It's not like the current low taxes are making you especially competitive on the global market, as far as I can see USA's industrial sector is in it's death throes.
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Aklyon

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Re: The Debt Ceiling Deal... ing
« Reply #12 on: July 15, 2011, 04:31:26 pm »

Its a problem because we have one side that has a president, and the otherside which has walled itself into being doomed if not against it.
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Lord Shonus

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Re: The Debt Ceiling Deal... ing
« Reply #13 on: July 15, 2011, 04:32:42 pm »

Taxes aren't an economic issue. They're a political issue. The Republicans have made keeping taxes low a cornerstone of their campaign for longer than a lot of the electorate has been alive. Being "soft" on taxes would wreck the party.
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Re: The Debt Ceiling Deal... ing
« Reply #14 on: July 15, 2011, 04:34:28 pm »

I believe that 'something' is called bankruptcy. And when the USA goes bankrupt... *shudder*

 All us other countries are already planning celebrations, we've all made a deal with china to either get a state or a town at least.

Shit! Can I buy Detroit and declare myself Duke of Michigan? I've got a couple thousand...
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