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Author Topic: The Debt Ceiling Deal... ing  (Read 25218 times)

KaelGotDwarves

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Re: The Debt Ceiling Deal... ing
« Reply #105 on: July 19, 2011, 02:37:19 pm »

The majority view in the US is that the politics are fucking crazy and we just have to vote in the lesser of two evils (Federal elections are almost always decided by swing/independent voters), at this point, the Republicans are on record as wanting to do fuck all just to get Obama not reelected including freezing the government and causing the economy to crash further so...

http://www.quinnipiac.edu/x1295.xml?ReleaseID=1624

We disapprove of how Obama is handling things but we trust Congress and the Republicans less.

The "scholarly" political scientist view is that Bachmann and some of the Republican field are running as completely insane ludicrous caricatures so that someone moderate like Romney actually has a chance - if anyone does against Obama at this point.

Nadaka

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Re: The Debt Ceiling Deal... ing
« Reply #106 on: July 19, 2011, 02:45:55 pm »

If it's not staged I wouldn't want to be into Obama's shoes.
Default the debt and ruin the county now or make unbearable spending cuts and ruin it later...
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/americas/2011/07/201171705053602429.html
What did you guys do to the GOP? It's like their members hate America's guts.

But the most hilarious thing is that the connexion between the US current financial trouble and Bush tax cuts are not obvious to everyone.

They do hate America and everything it is founded on, except for tax avoidance and personal gain. The sad part is that they have been labeling everyone else traitors for so long that they think that they represent the One True America that has more in common with a dark age feudal society of serfs and nobles than it does with a free and open society.

Note: I have a conflict of interest. I am not a Democrat. But I am anti-Republican.
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ed boy

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Re: The Debt Ceiling Deal... ing
« Reply #107 on: July 19, 2011, 02:50:09 pm »

President 4chan? I'm not optimistic.

President Rick Astley and the new constitution will be written in lolcat and then end in a fresh prince of bell air reference.
We've already done the bible.
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RedKing

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Re: The Debt Ceiling Deal... ing
« Reply #108 on: July 19, 2011, 03:00:53 pm »

If it's not staged I wouldn't want to be into Obama's shoes.
Default the debt and ruin the county now or make unbearable spending cuts and ruin it later...
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/americas/2011/07/201171705053602429.html
What did you guys do to the GOP? It's like their members hate America's guts.

But the most hilarious thing is that the connexion between the US current financial trouble and Bush tax cuts are not obvious to everyone.

They do hate America and everything it is founded on, except for tax avoidance and personal gain. The sad part is that they have been labeling everyone else traitors for so long that they think that they represent the One True America that has more in common with a dark age feudal society of serfs and nobles than it does with a free and open society.

Note: I have a conflict of interest. I am not a Democrat. But I am anti-Republican.
Cue Nikov and Bouchart acting butthurt that you said mean things about them. Yeah, I went there.

I'm with you...I'll never be a Democrat, but I'm a staunch anti-Republican. The sad part is if they weren't so full of religious nuts and corporatists, I'd probably be a Republican. I'm down with fiscal conservatism and pragmatic foreign policy.
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nenjin

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Re: The Debt Ceiling Deal... ing
« Reply #109 on: July 19, 2011, 03:08:20 pm »

The Democrats issue is that they are the party of compromise, for good or ill. They don't want to go at it alone, they want a majority that supports what they do. Republicans take the opposite view. Their job isn't to reach a consensus, their job is to pursue what they believe is best for the country. So Republicans get shit done but it drives half the US insane when they do it, and Democrats do nothing and drive everyone insane because they won't play by the same playbook as the Republicans when it's really time for action. That and Democrats never seem to be able to secure the overwhelming majority in time to do anything about it. They had their two years before the Tea Partiers got in, and they did very little with it.

As an aside, when did the Democrats and Republicans of old switch places? Because in the 19th century, Democrats talked and acted more like Republicans of today, and Republicans talked and acted like Democrats.

Anyways, I'm in Camp B. I still find it hard to believe that Republicans truly want to watch our credit rating slip. Good business sense implies you pay your debts because they're your debts, whether you like them or not. That said, in the distant past, entrenched political views have led to a total breakdown, where one party was willing to watch the Union burn if they didn't get their way, because they cared that little for it compared to their own interests. While I don't see Tea Partiers advocating cession, in this day and age allowing our whole government to fail and then swooping in to try and pick up the pieces might be the next closest thing.
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Phmcw

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Re: The Debt Ceiling Deal... ing
« Reply #110 on: July 19, 2011, 03:13:20 pm »

And everyone here seems to assume that because America suffer, they, personally, will suffer.
If the US is managed to turn into a corporate state, the person controlling it will have more power than ever.

It's just the republican fanbase that will suffer. But they will already suffer of any action undertaken by the republicans.
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Aqizzar

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Re: The Debt Ceiling Deal... ing
« Reply #111 on: July 19, 2011, 03:15:44 pm »

Anyways, I'm in Camp B. I still find it hard to believe that Republicans truly want to watch our credit rating slip. Good business sense implies you pay your debts because they're your debts, whether you like them or not. That said, in the distant past, entrenched political views have led to a total breakdown, where one party was willing to watch the Union burn if they didn't get their way, because they cared that little for it compared to their own interests. While I don't see Tea Partiers advocating cession, in this day and age allowing our whole government to fail and then swooping in to try and pick up the pieces might be the next closest thing.

That's the thing though, the total-obstinacy wing of the Republican Congress, Michelle Bachmann et al, by all indication simply don't believe that hitting the debt ceiling and dribbling out money by most-necessary bondholder first would impact the government's security rating.  Partly because they're so addicted to believing that legislative conviction trumps reality, partly because they know America is always the best at everything no matter what and the banking sector will slit their own throats to preserve that, partly because they are to a one people who have never known financial hardship and don't really know how credit works... And partly because they just don't care, and think this is the perfect opportunity to finally put Grover Norquist's "starve the beast" plan into action and prove the country the efficacy of forcibly weaning the weak and lazy off of government handouts, legislative process be damned (although I notice none of them have actually said it yet, which does help convince me it's all a stunt).
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RedKing

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Re: The Debt Ceiling Deal... ing
« Reply #112 on: July 19, 2011, 03:22:22 pm »

As an aside, when did the Democrats and Republicans of old switch places? Because in the 19th century, Democrats talked and acted more like Republicans of today, and Republicans talked and acted like Democrats.

It was a gradual process, but the real shift began with the Great Depression (FDR was an atypical Democrat for his era), had a major jolt in 1964 and 1968 when the Southern conservative wing of the Democrats switched en masse to the Republicans, and was pretty much completed by the 1980 election when Reagan got the support of religious conservatives and many of the so-called "Reagan Democrats".

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nenjin

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Re: The Debt Ceiling Deal... ing
« Reply #113 on: July 19, 2011, 03:28:08 pm »

Let me put it this way. (And yes, I'm going to make more Civil War examples.)

Southern Democrats used to argue, with a straight face, that they were being deprived of equal treatment under the law in the 1800s when any kind of legislation tried to alter, restrict or change the spread of slavery to new territories. They made much bugaboo about how it "violated their guaranteed rights under the Constitution."

They did this in the same breath as they denied that African Americans were being deprived of their rights. Because the issue they publicly debated wasn't truly the issue they and the Northern Republicans were actually disagreeing on. Publicly Northern Republicans said they didn't want to do anything to current slavery, but at the same time they made a lot of noise about equal rights for slaves. So while the expansion of slavery was the topic of debate, the truth of the issue was slavery itself, which both parties tried to act as though it wasn't the crux of the matter. All the energy that fueled the expansion of slavery debate came from the question of slavery, which only after the Civil War started and progressed did Northern Republicans feel like they could actually do something about. It took hundreds of thousands of causalities and total devastation before even the people who supported Abolition from the outset felt like they could make it a reality.

I see this as much the same thing. 

Quote
Michelle Bachmann et al, by all indication simply don't believe that hitting the debt ceiling and dribbling out money by most-necessary bondholder first would impact the government's security rating.  Partly because they're so addicted to believing that legislative conviction trumps reality, partly because they know America is always the best no matter what and the banking sector will slit their own throats to preserve that, partly because they are to a one people who have never known financial hardship and don't really know how credit works...

They know. They're fully aware of how the system works. Their rhetoric isn't for the benefit of Congress, it's for the benefit of the media and their constituents. The people that voted them in don't have a clue how the financial, banking and credit system works world-wide and they don't care a whit for who it actually effects because they assume (as you said) that it will never really reach their doorstep. The Republicans hope for a total collapse because it'd allow them a shot at totally reworking the system with (they hope) a Republican president and a Republican majority. They're gambling on the whole thing falling apart so they can be the ones to rebuild it.

So the real worry for me is that this is more than 13th hour brinkmanship at this point. I'm worried that the Republican majority has internally agreed that no matter how damaging or unprecedented the results are going to be, it's worth it to dethrone Obama. I don't think that's honestly the case though, because there's no way everyone is just going to develop total amnesia within a year, particularly when figures like Mitch McConnell are offering up resolutions into the Congressional Record that say stuff like "we'll pass a resolution to approve the debt ceiling increase, but only after we say that we still reject it on principle."

So I have two choices on what to believe. Assume that literally half the country is completely deluded (which I don't) and that we're headed to Hell, or assume that Republicans cannot have their cake and eat it too, and that this will literally go up the last minute until the Republicans realize they've crossed the threshold and will ultimately be held responsible for the results.

I suppose the other option is that they think they can actually spend the next year and a half blaming Obama for the fallout and that moderates will agree with their reasoning. I do think they're deluded on that front. America may be America, but our moderates are not complete idiots or pathologically uninformed. The pay off the Republicans seek is not something that will satisfy moderates who don't loathe Obama.

Quote
It was a gradual process, but the real shift began with the Great Depression (FDR was an atypical Democrat for his era), had a major jolt in 1964 and 1968 when the Southern conservative wing of the Democrats switched en masse to the Republicans, and was pretty much completed by the 1980 election when Reagan got the support of religious conservatives and many of the so-called "Reagan Democrats

Thanks. I assumed the Southern Democrat Body had to go SOMEWHERE en masse, because the worst elements of the Republican attitude of today matches the average Southern Democrat way of behaving to a T.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2011, 03:37:52 pm by nenjin »
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Glowcat

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Re: The Debt Ceiling Deal... ing
« Reply #114 on: July 19, 2011, 03:37:02 pm »

While I don't see Tea Partiers advocating cession, in this day and age allowing our whole government to fail and then swooping in to try and pick up the pieces might be the next closest thing.

You realize revolutionary rhetoric is a large part of why they called themselves the Tea Party, right? It's what most conservatives only ever bloody talk about in places they hold sway. Secession this, secession that. Damn regulations are keepin' us down! The poor deserve to die! Taxes are pretty much illegal! We need to rebel against the socialist tyranny! It's all so absurd yet it was couched in language that makes it sound like a good thing.

Where I hung out the Libertarian portion gave at best lip service to fighting the excesses of corporations but it always came down to the gubmint's interference being the cause of the rampant greed and corruption, and certainly not the divinely inspired laissez-faire principles which this country indisputably was founded on. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy where they attempt to make government suck as much as possible and then blame it for everything because the only True Path to Freedom(tm) is by destroying all governments entirely. Then everything will magically work out great.. or at least alright... okay maybe it'll suck but we'll be FREE!

EDIT: The rebuilding after a collapse thing was also a common subject. That's the only thing that has me slightly worried about the whole Debt Ceiling thing.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2011, 03:39:50 pm by Glowcat »
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nenjin

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Re: The Debt Ceiling Deal... ing
« Reply #115 on: July 19, 2011, 03:44:00 pm »

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You realize revolutionary rhetoric is a large part of why they called themselves the Tea Party, right? It's what most conservatives only ever bloody talk about in places they hold sway. Secession this, secession that. Damn regulations are keepin' us down! The poor deserve to die! Taxes are pretty much illegal! We need to rebel against the socialist tyranny! It's all so absurd yet it was couched in language that makes it sound like a good thing.

I seem to recall (Pre-Tea Party) some western Red state senator offering up actual cession legislation during the 2000s.

But I don't want to throw around the word cession because while it makes a good comparison, it's inflammatory and it's not truly accurate. They picked the the Boston Tea Party because early colonial America is unimpeachable in American political discourse. The patriots were never wrong, about anything, including slavery, and they want to wear that mantle. 
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Glowcat

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Re: The Debt Ceiling Deal... ing
« Reply #116 on: July 19, 2011, 03:51:35 pm »

I'm just saying from personal experience that there's a lot more secessionist talk, or at least civil war talk, than you seem to imply. Recall the mid-term elections where Second Amendment remedies were on the table and watering the tree of liberty with the blood of tyrants was a very common slogan. I've seen first hand how in love many Tea Party folks are with the idea of a revolution and harkening back to the retconned heroes of the revolution is more than simply a desire for the mantle of patriotism.
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nenjin

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Re: The Debt Ceiling Deal... ing
« Reply #117 on: July 19, 2011, 04:04:07 pm »

Well, I do agree with some of that. More I'm looking at the depth to which they dehumanize the opposition. In that regard we're still not quite there yet, Republicans aren't calling Democrats supporting gay rights amendments mentally diseased (they're only calling homosexuals mentally diseased.) The whole drama of what's his name calling Obama a liar in Congress, however, is much closer to what you're talking about.

When we have Republicans and Democrats brawling in the aisles on a weekly basis, I'll seriously start worrying about seeing flames from this. "Don't call my bluff" isn't quite there yet.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2011, 04:15:27 pm by nenjin »
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RedKing

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Re: The Debt Ceiling Deal... ing
« Reply #118 on: July 19, 2011, 04:04:59 pm »

What you're seeing is a lot of the "militia" folks from the 1990's resurfacing in a new guise. But with the same MO and more or less the same ideology. To a certain extent, I can't help but think that it's partly because those who were my age kinda daydreamed about being the kickass guerrilla fighters who would throw off the yoke of Soviet oppression (after the Soviets invaded) and then the world changed and the Russians were our sorta-friends and definitely no longer an existential threat. Now they see our own government as the new "socialist oppressor" and are jizzing their survivalist camos at the thought of getting to play out their fantasy.
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Phmcw

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Re: The Debt Ceiling Deal... ing
« Reply #119 on: July 19, 2011, 04:05:21 pm »

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mary-bottari/alec-exposed-milton-fried_b_901029.html?ref=tw

It's actually simple. in the middle of a huge economic crisis, it will be easy to buy cheap a lot of public services and to cut yet more in wages. The people having foreseen these changes, now sitting on a ton of cash and gold due to the crises (because if you've bought a lot of refuge values, you can sell them easily for cash) will win a ton of money. And whether it's by consensus or by bursting the debt change nothing.
Whatever the outcome, some poeple will come out of this a lot richer. But not you.

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This is not a case of Democrats being stupid. You’d have to be far worse than stupid not to see the correct political strategy to adopt at this point.

What has happened is that the Democratic Party is no more. It is, at this point, all about current incumbents gaining the favor of the corporate elite, lulling the public into a non-voting torpor or stupor, and of course, arguing that people worried about the nation’s future should vote for them yet again because “the Republicans are worse.”
« Last Edit: July 19, 2011, 04:07:06 pm by Phmcw »
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