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[Jim Groovester]

Well jeez, not like there is much I can ask without someone clearly finding a way around it.

Then your questions aren't good enough.

If you want to ask a good question, you point out the thing that bothers you, and you ask why he did it. If what bothers you isn't evident, give a small explanation of why it bothers you, usually in comparison to something he should have done.

I'll use you as an example.

Meanmelter, you're not hunting. You're posting frequently but you're not asking very good questions. Do you simply not know how, or are you just trying to skate by with superficial activity?

The thing that bothers me is your questions, so I ask you about them. I lace my question with an accusation to set you on edge a little bit and also to state what I don't like as well as my suspicions. I put forth a few explanations I find likely, most of them unfavorable to you, and I leave you in a bit of a difficult position where you have to come up with an answer that satisfies me.

You see how it works? There's no set template, really, so the guidelines I gave you are to help you practice. Generally you should only ask about what players have done and said, or what their suspicions are, as those are the only topics that will actually get you anywhere in a scumhunt. Asking them why you should change their vote is a complete waste of time, as the answer to that question has zero relevance to whether they are town or scum.

Besides, they can easily act way to townie which is a huge open sign to me that they are scum.

This is the Too Townie fallacy. This is exactly the Too Townie fallacy.

If somebody is active and scumhunting and generally looking like town, then they are very likely town. There is no point when somebody's towniness wraps around and becomes scumminess.

You will encounter players who have nearly perfect town games. If you decide to lynch them for looking 'too town' you will be wrong every time.

[Meanmelter]

I'm sure they will trip over their own shoe-laces eventually? Besides, they can easily act way to townie which is a huge open sign to me that they are scum.

So wait, they're so incompetent that they'll undoubtedly reveal themselves on their own, but so cunning they can't possibly be revealed through questioning? Make up your mind, and then realize that there wouldn't be a game if either of those were true.

I'm also not sure what you mean by "act way too townie" or why that's going to happen on its own or with the statements you've been given. Please step me through the process of a scum acting way too townie and being caught for it.

Possibly? Someone's going to fuck up eventually. And yes, I just can't find a way a scum could get caught in questioning without going "I am scum."
Well let's say Townie 1,2, 3, and 4 are all accusing each other of being scum. Scum 1 decides to hop in with them. And let's say townie 3 vote's against Scum, and then townie 1 votes against him to. So Scum begins being defensive, stating he can't be scum for such reasons. So if he was going to act like a normal townie, he wouldn't have to worry about being defensive, because he wouldn't be scum. But because he is acting defensive, he clearly is scum.
Hope that helps.

Your just totally implying I should ask questions all day. Which, isn't going to help me scumhunt if I can't even make up a good one. I'm no interrogator.

The only way to get better, aside from realizing why you need to do so, is practice. "Can't scumhunt, so not going to" is both untrue and suspiciously passive.

Can't practice if I can't even think of a decent question that isn't bullshit or irrelevant.

There is plenty he could say. He could just simply say he isn't scum and come back with an argument saying I am scum, though that would be scum to vote back now wouldn't it.

First of all, scumtells aren't quite the same thing as being scum. This is especially true because many scumtells are only such when they're unjustified or done a certain way- voting you because you're attacking him with garbage arguments isn't scummy, for instance.

Secondly, this is the long, pointless, slow way to go about it. "You're scum, Max." "No, I'm not." Great. Thrilling conversation. What's your next response? "No, you totally are."? What response could he give that's both useful and not a supposed scumtell?

"Oh so just because you say your not scum I should totally believe your not scum?"
I dunno, a response that leaves some kind of clue that he could be? Sitting here and just waiting for someone else to get a decent answer out of someone else isn't helping me scumhunt.

Now you're telling me about statements not being questions? You've got a lot of snark or you're a shameless hypocrite, but regardless, I would think "please restate your case on anzki" would translate to "Meanmelter, why do you suspect anzki again?" rather easily. Why were you more concerned about being stubborn or snarky than about answering the question and pressing your case? Don't you want an opportunity to explain to everyone why anzki is totally scum?

Well according to this, and this I am apparently a snarky douche.
 But, I got to agree with you on the last one, I can't really say he is scum. But everyone is accusing him of being one.

Anywho, I'm off to bed. I'm expecting a lot of rant's toward myself and how I should totally take a chill-pill and whatnots.

Also, ninja'd

[Vector]

I'm expecting a lot of rant's toward myself and how I should totally take a chill-pill and whatnots.

AH-HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAAAAAA

Not while I'm your IC, pipsqueak.

[Vector]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Oh, and no, I can't believe that's a picture of me, either.  I mean really.  Who does that girl think she is.  Sitting in the flowers and things.

Shouldn't she be doing something more Vectory?  Like smashing the skulls of her enemies beneath her enormous black boots?

... Yeah, that's actually me about two years and a couple of months ago.  Good looking kid.  Hehehehehe

[Vector]

Yeah, okay, Vector has to sleep now or something because the alternative is too horrid to contemplate.  Night, doods.  Sleep soundly and get ready to kick ass tomorrow morning.

[Max White]

THREADSPLOSION!!! This thing got big, fast. Lots of reading to do. I have skimmed over it, but I haven't looked over it carefully enough with a fine tooth comb for scum tells. I shall be doing that next.

Max White-Why  the hell are you NOT voting anyone.  You skipped the RVS stage completely and didn't post a vote.

Well, after a few games, I have sort of built my own style for taking care of early game voting. The most of the game, but d1 more than ever, I only vote when I feel sure about scum. It sometimes has a brutal effectiveness. I shall vote when I am ready to see somebody lynched.

Max White: What is up with you just going away after you said something that sounded scummy here:

You know, I was thinking that what freeform said made sense, glad you were there to correct me on exactly how scum thinks.

I have been out all day on the town. Had to go get some shopping, see a doctor, and had a great lunch.

As a general rule, if somebody goes away, unless it is for a few days, it is because they are attending to life. The game has only been going for about a day, so you can't expect me to be here constantly.

As for that specific quote, it was a reaction test. I wanted to see if he would read it as 'I'm happy that you were willing to share a great insight into what the scum are after' or if he was more paranoid and read it as 'You just gave away that you are thinking like scum, so you must be scum'
I didn't get a reaction at all, so I guess he passed that one.

Max White I dunno why, but everytime I see this it just screams your I.D. says Mr.Scum on it.

Hmm, maybe we do have a reaction, a long time after I posted it. Makes me think you had to ask your scumchat about it. You didn't fully fail that reaction test, but then again you didn't do well.
Meanmelter: What else has your scum hunting bought up?

Shouldn't she be doing something more Vectory?  Like smashing the skulls of her enemies beneath her enormous black boots?

Her gaze alone is melting the face of the photographer.


Gotta go read, be back with what ever I find.

[Max White]

So thee people have stood out to me, one of them very understandable, two of them not so much, but I think I should still bring them up. Vector and Jim have both seemed to advise that massive walls of text analysing every post arn't productive, and tend to get over looked, so I shall bring forward anything I think is realy significant that is new...

Meanmelter
Wow, this guy has sort of stepped into hot water. Normally I would look at he's case as being newbie mistakes, but there is something scummy about him that I haven't seen in anybody else here.

I was going to see if he was going to state that he was not a scum or say something relevant to that. Perhaps even vote against someone else and accuse them of being scum. IT is RVS. I can change as I please. I believe.

This is a rather angsty reply to an IC.
Now normally a new player is faced with the task of finding scum, through means not understood to them, and they have to do it well or get voted out. A daunting task, and to make it worse they don't have a friend in the world, except the IC's... As such the normal response is to either be very willing to listen to the IC's, as they offer the only source of security, or be super paranoid and suspect the IC's more than anybody, as they are the biggest threat.
The fact that Meanmelter is giving a similar reply that a rebellious teenager would give their parent when asked to clean their room indicates he has another IC to listen to for advice, he doesn't feel compelled to hug up to the IC's, or destroy them, he feels he has the support to do what ever the hell he wants.
There has been other points against him, but they have been made.

kilakan
Kilakan has been rather aggressive in the past. I think Vector would approve. He has said he is trying to tone that down a little, and that is reassuring, but I'm still going to present my case.

Well he seems to be attempting to emotionally buddy me due to agreeing with everything I say, and then attacking the person I was attacking using similar questions as my own.  Though in a non-begginner game I would call him scum for it, I think here it's more a case of him trying to learn by 'kind-of' copying others.  Where it's not exactly bandwaggoning, or exactly parroting but kinda acting as the other person would.  Of course I don't know much to anything about him so it may very well be that he is similar to me. *shudders*

Here we have a typically aggressive player with evidence against another player, and he just shrugs it off, justifying it as a newbie mistake. It seems scummy to point out flaws in a player, then dismiss it, as if to pre-emptively build a defence.
Also, when freeform was pushed, kilakan interfered.

Freeformschooler Why should I change this vote?

Not to answer for him but I can't resist.  Why don't you tell me?

This looks like scum trying to protect he's newbie buddy from a tricky question.
Also, scum tend to vote together d1

Flintus10 -2- anzki4, Deadmeat1471
anzki4 -2- freeformschooler, kilakan
freeformschooler -1- Meanmelter
Meanmelter -1- Vector

Not voting: Max White, IronyOwl, Flintus10

Now these is one massive problem with all this, and were it not for this I would be voting for kilakan. You should never try to link two players are scum, when neither have yet been lynched. It only helps the scum team. My strongest points here are only because of a link, and as such I plan to continue as normal, but keep my eyes open to both kilakan and freeform.
Still, I feel it is important to put these here, because now if I get killed or lynched, and later on one of these two is lynched and turns scum, my reasons will still be here daunting on them.
Don't go to bed with something on your mind!

freeformschooler
Well I can't suspect kilakan without this, can I? He has also given other evidence, but I feel it has been pointed out.

[anzki4]

And if he knows they're crappy and random, he could have lead with questions that were more useful. So it looks like he was trying to start the game by just doing anything to divert attention to himself.

Divert attention to myself? Why would I do that?

More useful questions, he was called out on the wording but I believe he was still just diverting attention, especially by unvoting VERY quickly after being responded to, as opposed to pressing for more information (shades of not caring who to vote for).

It's called Random Vote Stage I believe.

And here we get to the good stuff. He starts here a trend of just avoiding stuff.

So me not knowing what "winging it" means is avoiding? You realize I answered to that afterwards?

It starts out light but leads into this:

anzki4 Is this implying you are a red spy?

You tell me.

Which was a clear dodge and a bad answer entirely. So early in the game, without much evidence against him, he could have easily just said "no".

For that I have already given answer.

And then I just don't understand this:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Let me get this clear Meanmelter, do you think that "not backstabbing us" is same as "protecting us"?

When clearly not backstabbing is a legitimate form of protecting.

Not backstabbing is a legitimate form of protecting? Sure as hell it isn't! "Not backstabbing" is being neutral at best, not protecting.

Then there's the fact he was so active then resigned to being inactive around the time I voted for him. To top it all off, there's also how he NEVER CHANGED his vote from Flintus10, a lurker/inactive dude, even though he was one of the most active members earlier on, and thus could more reasonably spot scumtells just from the amount of reading.

Maybe because he hadn't answered my question yet? And maybe I didn't sit starting this thread the whole yesterday. Just what was morning/early day in Finland.

[anzki4]

And "starting" means "staring" in my previous post 

[Darvi]

*AHEM*

NO QUOTING MODS!

[Max White]

Oh, shit. Sorry.
But it was in the thread, for everybody to see, it wasn't even a role pm or anything, and otherwise I would just be saying Darvi said it on page X, and it isn't even a very big quote....
Fine, I apologise for forgetting that one.

[freeformschooler]

Divert attention to myself? Why would I do that?

Yes yes, AWAY.

And here we get to the good stuff. He starts here a trend of just avoiding stuff.

So me not knowing what "winging it" means is avoiding? You realize I answered to that afterwards?

It starts out light but leads into this:

anzki4 Is this implying you are a red spy?

You tell me.

Which was a clear dodge and a bad answer entirely. So early in the game, without much evidence against him, he could have easily just said "no".

For that I have already given answer.

Indeed you did. You replied with this:

I know that I am not a scum, but however I do not know what my actions imply* to him.

And when pressed about that, you replied with this:

Because I know that I am not a scum, but no else does not.

You expected it to end there like that was some answer but it still doesn't explain your original answer. If you KNOW you're not
scum, why the sudden attitude of really wanting everyone to believe it?

More useful questions, he was called out on the wording but I believe he was still just diverting attention, especially by unvoting VERY quickly after being responded to, as opposed to pressing for more information (shades of not caring who to vote for).

It's called Random Vote Stage I believe.

Indeed. However, we're still playing Mafia. A town would have still pressed for much more
information on that person or another as they could before moving on with just a simple answer. I for example believed it was very possible Meanmelter was scum, but when I didn't get much out of him, as opposed to getting a lot out of you, I changed my vote but only then.

Not backstabbing is a legitimate form of protecting? Sure as hell it isn't! "Not backstabbing" is being neutral at best, not protecting.

How is not backstabbing not a legitimate form of protecting the other towns? If you're mafia, you're aiming to be backstabbing - the opposite of protecting the towns. You want them anything BUT protected. If you're town, you're not aiming to be backstabbing - you're aiming to lynch scum. In fact, by not backstabbing other towns, you're protecting both yourself and the other towns by keeping yourselves from falling into lylo. Your definition here seems awful scummy.
 

Maybe because he hadn't answered my question yet? And maybe I didn't sit starting this thread the whole yesterday. Just what was morning/early day in Finland.

Then I assume you can reasonably now determine who's scum? Other than yourself. Of course, Flintus has rejoined us now, and he's said some real scummy things so I will give you that. 'Course that could just mean you two are in cohorts hmm?
 
 

Spoiler: Oh and (click to show/hide)

I won't be able to be as active today as I was yesterday Job hunting day.

[Max White]

And if he knows they're crappy and random, he could have lead with questions that were more useful. So it looks like he was trying to start the game by just doing anything to divert attention to himself.

Divert attention to myself? Why would I do that?

Dude, your trying to inspire WIFOM reasoning. Perhaps you are scum who planned to bring attention to themselves as justification for being a townie? Sometimes townies draw attention to themselves, as such how much attention you have on you isn't really a valid point, but trying to justify it with WIFOM type arguments is scummy.

[Jim Groovester]

freeformschooler
Well I can't suspect kilakan without this, can I? He has also given other evidence, but I feel it has been pointed out.

There's a major flaw in your thinking if you have to tack this onto there.

You can, in fact, suspect somebody without suspecting somebody else through implication. That is what you should be doing.

[Max White]

I suspect kilakan for being in a team with freeform, but I don't have to suspect freeform for being in a team with kilakan?
Give my brain a second to stop doing backflips...