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[NativeForeigner]

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=88758.0
Max Scum, Me Town, game didn't finish a bunch of people dropped out
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=87209.0
Both of us town, I lost my computer on the last day and got lynched thanks to not being able to defend myself (fucking girl friends)

Kilakan, Max: Do you think maybe you two could link me to a few past games of yours? Preferably one where you were town and one where you were scum. The more the merrier.

I'll read over these, thanks. So you haven't had a game as scum yet?

[kilakan]

Nope, never been picked as scum in an online game.

[Max White]

Kilakan, Max: Do you think maybe you two could link me to a few past games of yours? Preferably one where you were town and one where you were scum. The more the merrier.

Kilakan has already filled you in on my more recent games, but let me add some more to that list.

Beginner's Vengeful Mafia 1: My first game online ever! This one was a bit of a mess for me, but I won it, kicked some scum ass!
Third Party Mafia 3: I was mafia, Jim was my brother, the game ended when I nk'd Darvi and he flipped town.
Paranormal 19.5: Active game, no comment.

[Jack A T]

Okay.  I'm somewhat surprised by the low number of posts there were while I was gone.  Time for MORE QUESTIONS!

NativeForeigner: Out of all the players here, who do you think would be most threatening to you if they were scum and you were town, and vice versa?
Kilakan: About how sure of someone being scum would you have to be to place the first vote on them?  Second?  To hammer?
Max White: You seem to be rather focused on not tunneling.  If you saw two people tunneling each other in this game, how would you react?  What would you do?  Why?
Pandarsenic: Who here do you think you will have the most trouble reading?  Why?

[Max White]

Max White: You seem to be rather focused on not tunneling.  If you saw two people tunneling each other in this game, how would you react?  What would you do?  Why?

Question their evidence. Poke and prod at the integrity of their arguments. Sometimes, and I'm hoping today, townies are right, so we can't just say 'You have been focusing on this player, therefore you are wrong!' but we can do our best to make sure that if somebodies arguments turn from scum hunting to tunnelling, they can see it.
It is a major concern for me, because it would be my weapon of choice were I scum, thus my worst fear as a townie.

[Jack A T]

Max White: You seem to be rather focused on not tunneling.  If you saw two people tunneling each other in this game, how would you react?  What would you do?  Why?

Question their evidence. Poke and prod at the integrity of their arguments. Sometimes, and I'm hoping today, townies are right, so we can't just say 'You have been focusing on this player, therefore you are wrong!' but we can do our best to make sure that if somebodies arguments turn from scum hunting to tunnelling, they can see it.
It is a major concern for me, because it would be my weapon of choice were I scum, thus my worst fear as a townie.

So...just to clarify, are you saying that if you see two people tunneling each other, you plan on attacking both of their arguments?

Do you feel that the increased amount of attention given by the entire town to their tunneling/the lowered amount of attention given by the entire town to scumhunting will be worth possibly getting the tunnelers to stop tunneling?

[Max White]

So...just to clarify, are you saying that if you see two people tunneling each other, you plan on attacking both of their arguments?

Do you feel that the increased amount of attention given by the entire town to their tunneling/the lowered amount of attention given by the entire town to scumhunting will be worth possibly getting the tunnelers to stop tunneling?

Well I guess we will have to make this a balancing act. Anyway, scum might show themselves if they join in on attacking arguments. There clearly is no right way to predict this, I can't see the future, and anything I say to predict scum might very well change their behaviour, so were going to have to wing it, but two players tunnelling each other with half baked arguments should be clear enough to pull them off each other.

[Pandarsenic]

Hardest to read:

Ehhh. That's a question of what they'll do. I don't think too hard on meta unless something stands out to me. Thus, the question is which person I expect to have the fewest tells either way. Tells happen in scumhunting: insincere scumhunting is scummy; scumhunting which is heartfelt, if not correct, is townlike.

Absence of hunting either way is scumlike, but I have no expectations of kilakan until I've seen him in action and doing things.

Max: But if you attack those two argument focuses, doesn't that incline the game towards focusing on that conflict? In a sense, doesn't it create a broader sort of "supertunnel" around the tunneling you're trying to break?

[Max White]

Max: But if you attack those two argument focuses, doesn't that incline the game towards focusing on that conflict? In a sense, doesn't it create a broader sort of "supertunnel" around the tunneling you're trying to break?

Meta tunnel... Logic collapse... BRAINSPLOSIONS!!!
Perhaps. I don't know, maybe. Depends on what the scum do. My assumptions and fears are based on what I would do, so they might be confirmed or denied, but predicting supertunnels based on trying to avoid tunnels sounds far too much like particle physics for me to delve into.

[Pandarsenic]

If it wasn't clear, I'm saying if we focus too much on "These two people are arguing," we get caught tunneling the act of tunneling, yo dawg.

[Max White]

I guess so...?
So let's not do that. It sounds rather bad. Yes, we should avoid tunneling tunnels as well, and if possible, avoid tunneling tunneling tunnels.

[Pandarsenic]

That being in mind, would you still attack people's arguments - not for their flaws, that I could see, but simply because they're there - if two people were focusing mostly on each other?

[Max White]

What? No, that would be silly!
If I can't see anything wrong with an argument, there is nothing to attack. Although good luck making a wine proof argument, but disregarding idiocy, I don't see why we should be attacking a good argument.
We wouldn't get anywhere if every time somebody raised a good point it was shot down for being a good argument.

[Pandarsenic]

That's... somewhat comforting. The way you phrased it sounded like you'd attack it just for being narrow-sighted.

[Max White]

Well yes, if somebody is being narrow sited, I will point this out to them. I want people to have their eyes open.
Most likely will not push a lynch over it, but I will bring it up.