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Author Topic: Paper on Philosophy  (Read 6308 times)

MaximumZero

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Paper on Philosophy
« on: July 11, 2011, 01:58:02 am »

Rules (thanks, Vector, for the idea):
1) No flaming or trolling. I don't want anyone (including myself) muted or banned for this thread. If it happens, I'm locking it.
2) Debating is the point here. Socratic Method. No stonewalling. Final Destination.
3) Don't be a dick. Seriously. See rule 1.

What I'm hoping will happen: People read my paper, dissect it and interject their own beliefs in, make proper counterpoints, and discuss. People are free to counterpoint other peoples' counterpoints, so long as no one raises their voice. Caps lock and insults are not cool, and they make you look like a moron. So, here goes.

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Strife26

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Re: Paper on Philosophy
« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2011, 03:39:25 am »

What's the focus for the paper? Is it academic, or is it meant to be an essay? Are you talking ideally or in actual practice (because you seem to be trying to use points from both sides of the fence, which made some cognitive dissonance). In generally, I'd certainly disagree, would you rather that I look at the paper itself and how it could be improved, or on the ideas within and how'd I contest them?
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Grek

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Re: Paper on Philosophy
« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2011, 03:40:22 am »

So, first off, a few questions. Is this freshman philosophy, or a higher level class? Is your professor religious, or non-religious? If religious, which religion?

You've got two main streams to your paper ("Religion is bad because it is factually wrong." and "Religion is bad because it leads to bad choices.", and crossing them is making it weak. Pick one and write a full paper on that. You could go either way on that, playing up the angle of "The Truth is inherently important." (a proposition that your professor is likely to accept out of hand) or play up the angle of "Religious charities squander their efforts on religion when they could do good works.", using antecodes like you have in paragraphs 5 & 6. Especially 6. Antecodes like that are golden for convincing people of your point without making it look like you're playing to emotions.

If you go for option A, strike paragraphs 2, 3 and 4, while fusing 5, 6 and the bit about faith healing from 8 into one or two towards the begining that talk about why the truth is important and what happens if you stop seeking the truth.

Option B means voltroning paragraphs 2, 3, 4 and 7 into a set of paragraphs wherein you describe the persecution from the mindset of efforts being wasted persecuting heretics that could have been put towards fighting real corruption or helping people with real (nonspiritual) problems.

In either case, paragraph 9 is terrible and you should delete it. Quote from Alan Crowe: "Modern man is so committed to empirical knowledge, that he sets the standard for evidence higher than either side in his disputes can attain, thus suffering his disputes to be settled by philosophical arguments as to which party must be crushed under the burden of proof."

Quoting statistics that involve large numbers is generally uneffective, due to scope insensitivity. You should avoid that where possible, and stick to reletive terms like "More people died because of X than Y during time Z" where Y is something well known for being a very bad thing.

Throughout, you display a blithe disregard for possible counterpoints, and leave yourself wide open to cliche religious responses:
Quote
Morality without religious guidelines on a large scale is ultimately necessary for humans to band together and fully explore the total depths of both the limits of human knowledge and the universe.
"Everything would be perfectly fine if everyone would just accept the One True God, <insert god here>!"

Quote
As of 2011, there are 25 countries in which there is an active armed conflict or genocide occurring, all of which are mostly or partly motivated by opposing religions.
"But Stalin and Hitler were atheists who killed way more people than that!" or "Those conflicts weren't really religously motivated. <insert religion here> is a religion of peace, and don't support violence like that.

Quote
In fact, because of the populace’s utter apathy toward questioning one’s own surroundings and status, the United States of America has a panel of people who do the voting in the Presidential Elections for them, and most citizens are blissfully unaware of any such arrangements.
"How dare you question the Constitution!" or, for non-americians, "So? Americians are just that dumb."

Quote
Some extremists go so far as to kill people acting within the bounds of normal society that oppose their views, such as the beheading of “infidels” and the murder of abortion clinic doctors.
"The <infidels|abortionists> are evil murders that deserve to die for their crimes. Killing them before they can kill again is the only just course of action" or "Those people aren't really religious. Real members of <insert religion here> do not murder people."

Finally, ending papers with "In conclusion, blah blah blah..." is old, tried and boring. Do something else.
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counting

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Re: Paper on Philosophy
« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2011, 04:35:04 am »

An essay is ok as to express personal opinions. But as an academic thesis or paper, it lacks the very fundamental structure with intro, and description, discussion, conclusions and most importantly the references of others' works. Since you need to build your opinions in academic you need to READ first, since it's always a collective works in researches. Even as an essay to express principle ideas, you still need to focus on the topic and defined your questions more strictly (as other posters suggested).

For the topic itself. I think that if you want to discuss the issue of "whether religions are necessary in modern societies", you need to at least defined what religions are first (probably best with references of others' works), and the functionality of religions from ancient to modern societies. And it's best to include religions not just western religious view but others in the whole world. And a powerful way to bring out your points, can be simply to describe what a society WITHOUT religions would look like, what exactly people may act differently; making examples and pictured that images for the readers. And by doing so, you can also bring out the pro and con from that particular picture. 
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Miggy

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Re: Paper on Philosophy
« Reply #4 on: July 11, 2011, 05:33:46 am »

I'm not capable of dissecting the essay as well as Grek, but I'll chip in that the general tone of language I got from reading it was very angry and hostile. I'm not sure if this is because I do not support your ideas (I am an atheist/agnostic as well, but I do not view religion as an inherently bad thing) or because of the actual wording and tone you use. But I read that you blame religious followers for playing to emotion instead of looking at cold hard facts. They make subjective decisions instead of objective. However throughout your essay your arguments seem very subjectively coloured: You are angry at the religious leaders and followers. Therefore your argument is just as bad as the argument you are trying to beat, leaving no real conclusion. Instead, you should objectively quantify why your point is stronger (As Grek mentioned, facts and anecdotes.).
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Paper on Philosophy
« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2011, 05:39:34 am »

In contrast to everyone else so far, I see nothing that I would change.
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Quote from: Thomas Paine
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.
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No Gods, No Masters.

Max White

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Re: Paper on Philosophy
« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2011, 05:49:26 am »

Not only that, but it can be very misleading at times. Take for example your example of Oxfarm, and it's contributions to charity. Oxfarm is not an atheist organisation, simply agnostic. It was not formed in the name of there being no evidence of a god. While many religious organisations, such as the red cross, help those in need without building churches, and in fact have a higher percent per dollar going directly to a cause. There are much better ways to try and show that faith is not the basis of morality (Have a link, this will help you out to do it right!) without refering to efforts from charities, because in all honesty, if you want contrast charitable acts based on faith of a higher power vs charitable acts based on reasoning from lack of evidence, then the Christians will kick some atheist ass.

Redo that chapter at least, right now it hurts your case.

MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Paper on Philosophy
« Reply #7 on: July 11, 2011, 05:51:34 am »

Not only that, but it can be very misleading at times. Take for example your example of Oxfarm, and it's contributions to charity. Oxfarm is not an atheist organisation, simply agnostic. It was not formed in the name of there being no evidence of a god.
I'm pretty sure that there isn't, nor will there ever be a charity founded for that reason. Oxfarm works because it doesn't concern itself with religion in its actions, it's a secular organization. That's the important part.
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Quote from: Thomas Paine
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.
Quote
No Gods, No Masters.

Max White

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Re: Paper on Philosophy
« Reply #8 on: July 11, 2011, 05:55:00 am »

No, no it doesn't work like that. The fact that there is no charity based on the lack of evidence for a god is really damaging to your case, and you need to see that. In any debate, the best way to resolve this is to not address it in the first place.
Sorry but you just don't get to claim the seculars as atheist, especially when such a high percent of their workers are religious.

Strife26

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Re: Paper on Philosophy
« Reply #9 on: July 11, 2011, 06:03:58 am »

Yeah, the point that's being attempt "non-religious charities are good" is a really weak point, between the fact that religious charities do a hell and half lot of good (which isn't something that can be reasonably argued with) and the fact that secular is certainly not equaling atheist.

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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Paper on Philosophy
« Reply #10 on: July 11, 2011, 06:07:27 am »

No one would ever form an atheist charity because that doesn't make any sense. Atheism is just not believing in any deities, there's nothing in there about charities. MZ's argument is that a secularized society is superior to a openly religious one, and as such secular charities are important. No, secular does not equal atheist, but that doesn't matter. The point is to replace religious charities that are known to have ulterior motives for doing what they do with secular charities that do not and are only being altruistic.
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Quote from: Thomas Paine
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.
Quote
No Gods, No Masters.

Glowcat

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Re: Paper on Philosophy
« Reply #11 on: July 11, 2011, 06:10:55 am »

Let's ignore that people of atheistic positions want secular charities precisely because they focus on doing good instead of using charity to fuel their own non-charitable religious interests.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2011, 06:17:00 am by Glowcat »
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Strife26

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Re: Paper on Philosophy
« Reply #12 on: July 11, 2011, 06:12:26 am »

Yes, but your secular charities are primarily funded and staffed by religious people.
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Glowcat

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Re: Paper on Philosophy
« Reply #13 on: July 11, 2011, 06:13:04 am »

Who cares. When they divorce themselves from religious interests the charity functions as a proper charity instead of a way to control others.
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Grek

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Re: Paper on Philosophy
« Reply #14 on: July 11, 2011, 06:17:06 am »

Yo. We aren't debating whether or not secular charities count as atheistic. We are discussing if it is viable to make people think that as a possible tactic in writing a philosophical paper. It doesn't actually matter if they "count" or not, as long as A] making the reader think that would help our case and B] we are able to make the reader think that by whatever method is employed.
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