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Author Topic: DAMN IT ALL  (Read 3596 times)

Number4

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Re: DAMN IT ALL
« Reply #15 on: July 09, 2011, 05:24:20 am »

More armor. Really, your 10 semi-armored dwarves are useless, get 4 full armored instead. If you're short on iron, make wooden shields (as good as addy for defense) or copper shields (the best). If you have silver, make silver blunt weapons and iron armor. If you have bronze, make more armor.

TLDR: Armor your dwarves more.
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Thanks for the suggestion, but Number4 is correct: [...] it would be easier and more predictable to just be a racist.

Did somebody just rule 34 two veins of metal?

Lexx

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Re: DAMN IT ALL
« Reply #16 on: July 09, 2011, 05:47:17 am »

More armor. Really, your 10 semi-armored dwarves are useless, get 4 full armored instead. If you're short on iron, make wooden shields (as good as addy for defense) or copper shields (the best). If you have silver, make silver blunt weapons and iron armor. If you have bronze, make more armor.

TLDR: Armor your dwarves more.

I definitely agree with this. To take on any kind of serious threat you need full sets of armor for your squads.
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Flare

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Re: DAMN IT ALL
« Reply #17 on: July 09, 2011, 06:24:33 am »

That was all they were wearing during the fights. In the reports I read how the goblins would easily cut through the cloaks and wound them. That somewhat confused me since you would expect after teh cloak there would still be armor to get through, but that didn't happen. Is it possible that my cloak somehow made my dwarves less tough?

Armor doesn't cover everything, cloaks are the only thing that cover the entire body, meaning the goblins in your case were probably attacking the unarmored areas of the dwarf where only the cloak covered.

I'm not too sure about the effectiveness of putting layer upon layer or armor on, dwarfs will move quite slowly when they are carrying more weight, and I've not read anything about entities that wear multiple sets of the same piece of armor faring any better than ones that do.

I found in my games that a good shield skill usually helps a heck of a lot more than the armor they carry as well, thought there's really no way to increase it through any specialized training scenarios like pitting troops against captured wild animals with wooden weapons. The only solution I know of is using the danger room, although you might consider that an exploit given just how effective it is.
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Crustypeanut

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Re: DAMN IT ALL
« Reply #18 on: July 09, 2011, 08:26:46 am »

If you really want to get crazy with armouring your dwarves, heres a good set up, according to the wiki:

http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php/Armor

PER DWARF:

Head:
2 Caps
1 Helm
6 Hoods

Chest:
1 Breastplate
3 Mail shirts
6 Cloaks

Lower Body:
1 Greaves
2 Trousers

Hands:
1 Pair Gauntlets
1 Pair Mittens

Feet:
1 Pair High Boots
1 Pair Socks

Shield + Weapon of choice. 

I know it sounds a bit nuts, but according to the wiki, you can do it, and this is for maximum protection.  I don't worry about the clothing myself, nor the extra caps, but I do use the 3 mail shirts.  They help cover the lower body and upper arms better.  My dwarves have a hard time dying.  Also, try and use leather for the clothes if possible.

Edit: Also, shields are very important.  Even using my set up of pure steel armor, my dwarf who dual wielded axes died alot faster (and actually died for that matter) than my dwarves with shields.  I even have one dwarf sporting two shields.  She's not doing half bad, she's at about 20 kills, most of which were with her shields. 
« Last Edit: July 09, 2011, 08:29:32 am by Crustypeanut »
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Flattermann

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Re: DAMN IT ALL
« Reply #19 on: July 09, 2011, 11:29:15 am »

Is separating the military from the civilians the only way to stop a Tantrum spiral? I always fail in doing so which turns even a pyrrhic victory into a loss due to angry parents -.-*

I mean shouldn't it be possible to pamper them to the point where they can just take the hit? I mean separating them feels kinda exploitisch since these dwarf fight to death to protect their Home, so shouldn't they at least now who they are dying for?

So any advice on this this is appreciated, since this is currently the No.1 issue that makes having an army  not fun atm  :(
« Last Edit: July 09, 2011, 12:00:28 pm by Flattermann »
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Fredd

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Re: DAMN IT ALL
« Reply #20 on: July 09, 2011, 11:38:29 am »

 With good levels in shield, and dodge, armor becomes only necessary as a last resort for unblocked blows. A way to train shield without using a danger room is to assign them wooden shields and armor only, and have them beat on wild animals, unarmed prisoners.
 The only times I will use a danger room is for newb recruits in the basic training squad that the militia commander runs. I keep them in it, training in a danger room until they develop some skills in shield, dodge(usually 2 months). They just get equipped with armor/shield.
 Once skilled, are transferred to a new squad, assigned weapons, armor/shield, and a non danger room barracks, near the entrance. Run potential archers through the program. Good shield skills might save them from enemy archers
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Aachen

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Re: DAMN IT ALL
« Reply #21 on: July 09, 2011, 12:59:46 pm »

Is separating the military from the civilians the only way to stop a Tantrum spiral? I always fail in doing so which turns even a pyrrhic victory into a loss due to angry parents -.-*

I mean shouldn't it be possible to pamper them to the point where they can just take the hit? I mean separating them feels kinda exploitisch since these dwarf fight to death to protect their Home, so shouldn't they at least now who they are dying for?

So any advice on this this is appreciated, since this is currently the No.1 issue that makes having an army  not fun atm  :(

Nice things. Lots of nice things, all over the place. The more excellent, pretty-pretty-oooo-shiny stuff around, the more stuff there is to notice. Nice stuff will give happy thoughts. And happy thoughts are what mitigate unhappiness, which is the prime cause for tantrum spirals. Have a good variety in food and drink, and you'll see happier dwarves. High-value rooms and architecture helps, too. Friendships, in this case, are less desirable. A dwarf gets sad when his friend is chopped up during the Twenty-seventh Attempted Abduction. Lots of friends means lots of sadness. Make sure you've got plenty of chairs and beds, or there will be complaints. Pets can help, but much like friendships, their deaths cause sadness. On that note, prompt burial helps to lessen the impact of death. AFAIK, there's always mist, too. Dwarves love them some mist. :)
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Nameless Archon

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Re: DAMN IT ALL
« Reply #22 on: July 09, 2011, 07:24:39 pm »

It's possible.  I've heard before that only one thing protects at a time.  If you have tissue paper over steel, then it's weak enough to sneeze through.  I'm not sure, this MAY have been in an older version.
IIRC, combat logs only report penetrating the outer layer. Since this is usually a cloak or the like, steel armor will *APPEAR* to have no effect, but should protect normally.
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Fire_fox

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Re: DAMN IT ALL
« Reply #23 on: July 09, 2011, 07:31:58 pm »

I find that getting dwarf therapist really helps. Every time you get a migrant wave look at it and see if any of the dwarfs who came had any combat experience. I never train them up from scratch they just die then. Good armor helps a lot but make sure the have some combat experience before you put them in the military.

You can also see what they are good at under their name when you go though the list of candidates to the squad.
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RAKninja

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Re: DAMN IT ALL
« Reply #24 on: July 09, 2011, 07:53:33 pm »

Once again, my military squad all decked out in iron and trained for 4 years, was wiped out during my first siege on this fort. What. In. The. FUCK!!!! I thought I was doing great, then a pack of gobbos come and wipe out my military. Its Fun, sure, but it doesnt make a good story when early sieges are the only cause of death for my forts. From two highly trained squads to 5 swordsdwarfs, ive locked up the fort. About 10 to 15 civilian dwarves outside, though. Any tips to help keep all of my forts from dying like this would be appreciated. I am using vanilla 31.25. Also, I have had forts open up after a siege only to have another within half a month. Looks like im gonna have to go spartan and draft half of my pop.

what kind of goblins?  watch out for bowgoblins and lashers.  those can get through your armor.  how many goblins?  most sieges i get are three squads.  and fairly well trained.  i'd wait till you get numerical and training superiority over the goblins before fighting them.  not as important if there are no lashers or bowgoblins, though.
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jc6036

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Re: DAMN IT ALL
« Reply #25 on: July 09, 2011, 08:06:30 pm »

It was a squad of pikegoblins with one marks goblin and a flying mount.
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RAKninja

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Re: DAMN IT ALL
« Reply #26 on: July 09, 2011, 08:28:38 pm »

It's possible.  I've heard before that only one thing protects at a time.  If you have tissue paper over steel, then it's weak enough to sneeze through.  I'm not sure, this MAY have been in an older version.
IIRC, combat logs only report penetrating the outer layer. Since this is usually a cloak or the like, steel armor will *APPEAR* to have no effect, but should protect normally.

you got it backwards i think.  otherwise why would i get messages about an attack penetrating a *pigtail fibre sock* when my dwarves are all wearing steel high boots (or addy)

It was a squad of pikegoblins with one marks goblin and a flying mount.

hrm, flying mount you say?  did you happen to check to see if that goblin was a civ leader? (if he's gone it's too late, things that leave the map "die" and so they get removed from civ screen reports)

the mount thing leads me to believe that that particular goblin might have been "important" and thus his squad were "skilled bodyguards" or some such.  wither way, a marksgoblin on a flying mount is a terrifying idea.  did you catch how he and his mount were doing in combat?
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jc6036

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Re: DAMN IT ALL
« Reply #27 on: July 09, 2011, 08:34:46 pm »

He was not harmed at all. I didnt get his name, or I would look it up in legends.
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andyman564

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Re: DAMN IT ALL
« Reply #28 on: July 09, 2011, 08:48:49 pm »

if it was a single marksman leading a group, chances are that the archer was an elite. those guys can turn your dwarves into pincushions from 20 tiles away, and can even hit your dwarves behind fortifications with ease.

and using chain shirts without a breastplate over top seems to be what did you in. In my experience, chain shirts are lousy at blocking piecing attacks (pikes/ arrows/ spears) while breastplates seem to deflect more often than not.
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Yeah.  Thus why I didn't make a trap.  In it's current state the fortress didn't need a trap, the whole damn fortress is a trap.

RAKninja

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Re: DAMN IT ALL
« Reply #29 on: July 09, 2011, 09:04:35 pm »

if it was a single marksman leading a group, chances are that the archer was an elite. those guys can turn your dwarves into pincushions from 20 tiles away, and can even hit your dwarves behind fortifications with ease.

and using chain shirts without a breastplate over top seems to be what did you in. In my experience, chain shirts are lousy at blocking piecing attacks (pikes/ arrows/ spears) while breastplates seem to deflect more often than not.

even worse on a flying mount.  you can see, what, 5z levels up and down?  if i saw THAT, i'd lock up the fort and wait till they left.  normal marksgoblins are bad enough, elites are nightmares.
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