Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 2 [3]

Author Topic: Other games like LCS?  (Read 16305 times)

Kay12

  • Bay Watcher
  • Fighting for Elite Liberal values since 2009!
    • View Profile
Re: Other games like LCS?
« Reply #30 on: July 11, 2011, 01:42:19 am »

Well, I really do have a few projects I should work on. Even concerning LCS, I still have to finish the film studio and bombs (at least the handheld ones). Then there's the special bluff messages I've implemented but not tested. After that, it's mainly the fiction accessory I mentioned in another thread, and I'll be open for new projects.

the game has a "big flaw" - it has a turn-based mode like LCS then switches to a real-time phase (which you have to sit through, bored)

I have never heard of Gangsters before but this thing is familiar. Everyone knows who Sid Meier is, right? He made lots of good games before the Civilization franchise became big. One of these games is Sid Meier's Covert Action - a game which, according to Meier himself, was made worse by the fact that the game was divided into too different portions. First, you'd tap phones, tail vehicles, decrypt messages and follow clues to find criminal safehouses. Then you'd play a stealth/shooter safehouse infiltration for collecting more evidence or arresting people. Sid Meier felt (and I share his view) that the real-time action phase when infiltrating the safehouse draws away too much attention from the big picture, the actual terrorist plot. You're bound to lose focus if you spend 10 minutes doing something else and then return to the mystery at hand. Covert Action is still a good game though, it just has this flaw which Sid Meier later adapted into the Covert Action Rule - two great games in one are worse than one good game.
Logged
Try Liberal Crime Squad, an excellent Liberal Crime adventure game by Toady One and the open source community!
LCS in SourceForge - LCS Wiki - Forum thread for 4.04

Jonathan S. Fox

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
    • http://www.jonathansfox.com/
Re: Other games like LCS?
« Reply #31 on: July 11, 2011, 02:23:35 am »

I just started watching the "Let's Play" for the existing Gangsters game. They guy said he's a big fan of the game, having played it for 11 years, but 30 seconds into the start of Let's Play the host says the game has a "big flaw" - it has a turn-based mode like LCS then switches to a real-time phase (which you have to sit through, bored). So even huge fans say it's shit. :P

(Hmm the guy says that after 10 years he can only beat "mission 1" of the game. It's been a while maybe that's why I stopped playing. Now i'm tempted to try and beat it!)

I've seen that Let's Play. He actually mentions LCS and briefly pines for an LCS style game using the Gangsters strategic map.

I have never heard of Gangsters before but this thing is familiar. Everyone knows who Sid Meier is, right? He made lots of good games before the Civilization franchise became big. One of these games is Sid Meier's Covert Action - a game which, according to Meier himself, was made worse by the fact that the game was divided into too different portions. First, you'd tap phones, tail vehicles, decrypt messages and follow clues to find criminal safehouses. Then you'd play a stealth/shooter safehouse infiltration for collecting more evidence or arresting people. Sid Meier felt (and I share his view) that the real-time action phase when infiltrating the safehouse draws away too much attention from the big picture, the actual terrorist plot. You're bound to lose focus if you spend 10 minutes doing something else and then return to the mystery at hand. Covert Action is still a good game though, it just has this flaw which Sid Meier later adapted into the Covert Action Rule - two great games in one are worse than one good game.

I don't dismiss the wisdom, since many hybrid games are worse than their component parts, but taking that principle as a universal truth would be a mistake. Some of the finest games I've ever played flagrantly contradict this. Space Rangers 2 has an entire text adventure engine, an RTS engine (with optional first person control of combat units), turn based strategy combat, and arcade shooter scenes, all in their RPG space trading and combat game. Most of the component parts are merely mediocre, but the sum of them is mindbogglingly superior. Total War and King Arthur are both turn-based strategy games that jump into real-time strategy battles to resolve combat, and King Arthur also has text adventures and RPG elements. X-COM has a semi-real time base building and economic and research management mode that goes into a turn-based tactical game to resolve combat. All of these games are fantastic, and would be functional but weakened if their constituent parts were severed from one another. One thing all these games do, however, is that they intertwine the game modes. Your RPG stats influence your RTS battles. The text adventures use your money and abilities from other game modes. Your economic game is about getting better gear and training the army for the combat game, and the combat game is about keeping your officers alive for the RPG game and getting loot for the economic game, and so on. From what I've seen, the more points of contact between the divergent game modes, the more cohesive and effective they are. Many points of contact also makes your actions in the multiple game modes important.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2011, 02:31:17 am by Jonathan S. Fox »
Logged

Kay12

  • Bay Watcher
  • Fighting for Elite Liberal values since 2009!
    • View Profile
Re: Other games like LCS?
« Reply #32 on: July 11, 2011, 02:41:23 am »

Personally I think the Covert Action rule is about focus, not the sheer number of different component games. The rule kicks in only if the components are complex (or otherwise confusing) enough to distract the player from each other. This is something that can be seen in the Civilization series - there's a lot of stuff, but it's simple enough not to distract the gameplay.

I guess games that adhere to the KISS principle aren't likely to violate the Covert Action Rule anyway.
Logged
Try Liberal Crime Squad, an excellent Liberal Crime adventure game by Toady One and the open source community!
LCS in SourceForge - LCS Wiki - Forum thread for 4.04

Angel Of Death

  • Bay Watcher
  • Karl Groucho?
    • View Profile
Re: Other games like LCS?
« Reply #33 on: July 11, 2011, 02:55:39 am »

http://www.pssoft.de/english/index.html

Crime Fighter is VERY vaguely like LCS. It's a pretty cool game, and it's now free. You'll probably need Dosbox to run it, though.
Logged
99 percent of internet users add useless, pulled out of arse statistics to their sig. If you are the 1%, please, for the love of Armok, don't put any useless shit like this in your sig.
Hidden signature messages are fun!

Jonathan S. Fox

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
    • http://www.jonathansfox.com/
Re: Other games like LCS?
« Reply #34 on: July 11, 2011, 06:35:19 am »

Personally I think the Covert Action rule is about focus, not the sheer number of different component games. The rule kicks in only if the components are complex (or otherwise confusing) enough to distract the player from each other. This is something that can be seen in the Civilization series - there's a lot of stuff, but it's simple enough not to distract the gameplay.

I guess games that adhere to the KISS principle aren't likely to violate the Covert Action Rule anyway.

Forgive me for debating this point with such enthusiasm, but, obviously, I am pretty passionate about game design.

Civilization is a good example of the principle you're giving, but it's not comparable to the games I'm talking about. Civilization is one game with a lot of features; diplomacy, city building, things like that. You could loosely call those minigames, but they're more like... nodes of complexity. Any of them, divorced from the whole, would be unable to stand on its own. There are a lot of mechanics and features, but there's only one real game. Star Control 2 is another game along the lines of what I'm talking about; it takes the action battles of Star Control and appends a huge and ambitious adventure/strategy campaign, changing the genre of the sequel by appending a completely different and much larger game to their battle system. Star Control 2's combat "minigame" literally stood on its own -- it's the original Star Control grafted onto a completely new genre of game. Yet the game works, it's a beloved classic. These examples I'm talking about have multiple radically different modes of play. They're not just full of features, or even minigames.

Space Rangers 2 is a great example of a game where the sub-games are sufficiently complex to distract from the rest of the game, but it works despite and because of that depth. I've poured hours into trying to win RTS battles, or completely forgotten about the rest of the game while chewing through text quests, in both cases finally finishing the mission only to be reminded that I just got a reward equivalent to five minutes of gameplay (and that doesn't bother me, because the real reward was the fun of playing the side game). It's a space trading and combat RPG, but they have missions about being in jail, running for president of a planet, and even being a small animal and trying to get fat and popular while digging a big burrow, each a game in itself with its own carefully considered mechanics and balance. Multiple games in one? Oh you betcha yes. Simplicity definitely isn't something I would associate with the game. The Total War and King Arthur games both combine two mechanically deep forms of gameplay, switching between the modes and spending a long time in each one. It's as if civilization took the time to spend twenty minutes simulating a real-time battle every time your armies clashed with a computer. Some strategy games have combat minigames, but the tactical combat in Total War games isn't a minigame, it's half the game. Arguably the more important half. But neither is the strategic layer a mere minigame; they're inseparable because in one you build your armies and decide to care about the outcomes of battles, and in the other you put your armies to the test and are tactically challenged to achieve your strategic objectives in a moment of truth.

I don't think simplicity is the key; it might keep a game from running afoul of the rule, but there are complex games that openly break the rule and get away with it anyway. A game like X-COM works because everything matters. Every rocket costs money, every death is a character whose experience is lost, every alien weapon dropped to the floor is an artifact to be reverse engineered, every bit of collateral damage to the spacecraft is less scrap for your engineers. And the relationship works the other way too, with every little strategic development impacting your tactical play. Total War and King Arthur use the same approach, though they have less feedback from the tactical game back into the strategic game. Space Rangers, in contrast, is highly diffuse and barely integrated at all; they make it work through pacing and Elite-like freedom of action. You pursue whatever game mode you feel like at any given time, skip some if you deplore them, or give up and go back to another mode if you're finding one too difficult. Don't like the RTS game? Don't accept missions of that type. You can even tell the game to never offer them because you refuse to ever take them. The component games are barely connected, but you're never pushed around, forced to do something you don't want to. Instead, you choose to change the pace every once in awhile, and it works remarkably well. These can be contrasted with Covert Action, which, if I recall correctly, interacts its parts only through success and failure. I think you can avoid the infiltration game sometimes by using alternate methods to gain information, but it's an integral part of your toolbox for solving problems, and sometimes you need it. That creates a pacing problem. Gangsters is more integrated, since the action sequences are watching your strategic orders carried out and giving new orders if you need to change them on the fly, but there's generally little for you to do. It's a major lull in your interesting decisions, mostly about spectacle, and the spectacle isn't that great.

I do recognize that there are games that suffer for multiple game modes, but this is one of the game design principles that I think is too conservative. Following it would save games like Spore, but it would also kill off games that actually thrive while hot glue gunning multiple genres together and cackling like a mad scientist. Sometimes I do get tired of one of the two game modes in the Total War series, but it's still far superior with them combined than if they were split. The two games just have tremendous synergy, since I care much more about everything in both modes, since they're key to success in the other. Likewise, X-COM is beautiful in part because of how integrated and multigenre it is.

I don't think these games are exceptions. And if you look for them, it's striking how many games are already heavily modal, swapping between subgames. Even LCS's basemode and sitemode are essentially two different games, each able to stand on its own. Oubliette was only one of those games; LCS evolved a second game on top of it with its tumorous feature creep. But it works, because they draw on the same characters, have heavy feedback between them, and that's enough.

I think amalgamating multiple games isn't inherently a bad idea. It's a deceptively cool idea that is very dangerous from a developmental standpoint. But it can work, sometimes spectacularly. It just has to be done well.
Logged

Kay12

  • Bay Watcher
  • Fighting for Elite Liberal values since 2009!
    • View Profile
Re: Other games like LCS?
« Reply #35 on: July 11, 2011, 08:29:01 am »

We share a passion, Jon, although I have the feeling you might be a bit more experienced than me.

I think you've got very good points, and I never considered Covert Action rule to be more than a guideline. I consider such guidelines equal to the josekis (sequences of good moves) of Go - a truly skilled Go player doesn't need to memorize any josekis and a truly skilled game designer doesn't have to memorize any such guidelines.

Also, the Covert Action rule has not aged very well. Covert Action itself had a rather flimsy storyline (or actually, an indefinite amount of sequential storylines chosen randomly). The main focus was not actually preventing the terrorist plot, but gathering a high score by arresting as many of the terrorists (aka thieves and photographers) as possible. Most modern games feature deeper characters and plots and focus more on winning than scoring, adding immersiveness and reducing the detrimental impact of CAr "violations". On the other hand, minigames that have little to do with the plot (no one is looking at YOU, Random Battles) may make even enchanting storylines boring.

On the other hand, I guess the Covert Action rule isn't as much about the number of subgames as it is about the presentation. Covert Action did this pretty badly - the infiltration mode was a separate chore for getting the terrorist, and the two modes were very weakly connected, having very little impact on each other. It's almost like having to play Tetris to build a wall in Dwarf Fortress - it just doesn't fit seamlessly. A game which does better is the Total War series, where you have turn-based strategy with real-time tactical battles - two clearly connected modes that work together. Whatever you do in strategy mode will impact what happens in tactical battles, and if you screw up your tactical battles, you may be lacking the troops you'd need to continue your conquests in strategy mode. It feels like a whole game, not just separate pieces. This same pattern (although with turn-based tactical battles) is also present in the popular franchise Heroes of Might and Magic. Both franchises also have the additional trump card of autocombat - in the likely event that the player wishes to focus on grand strategy instead of individual fights against pixies in the late game, things can be accelerated to suit the player's needs.

Summa summarum: A game is not bad simply because it has multiple games in it. Covert Action rule is too simplistic to be taken for a fact, and is probably intended to be a guideline instead of a strict rule anyway.
Logged
Try Liberal Crime Squad, an excellent Liberal Crime adventure game by Toady One and the open source community!
LCS in SourceForge - LCS Wiki - Forum thread for 4.04

Servant Corps

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Other games like LCS?
« Reply #36 on: July 11, 2011, 10:48:10 am »

Speaking of Covert Action, I really need to try and do a defensive pacifist run of the game to show it is at least doable to capture people without needing to break into their HQs. (The idea would be wiretapping and decoding messages to know where a suspect is located, then running the suspect off the road in the horrible driving minigame.)
« Last Edit: July 11, 2011, 10:51:03 am by Servant Corps »
Logged
I have left Bay12Games to pursue a life of non-Bay12Games. If you need to talk to me, please email at me at igorhorst at gmail dot com.

Kay12

  • Bay Watcher
  • Fighting for Elite Liberal values since 2009!
    • View Profile
Re: Other games like LCS?
« Reply #37 on: July 11, 2011, 02:24:25 pm »

Speaking of Covert Action, I really need to try and do a defensive pacifist run of the game to show it is at least doable to capture people without needing to break into their HQs. (The idea would be wiretapping and decoding messages to know where a suspect is located, then running the suspect off the road in the horrible driving minigame.)

The driving game isn't horrible, it's...

...hmm...

...surrealist art?

In any case, I found Covert Action a somewhat enjoyable game (because I like the idea of being a double-oh without being a certain Bond, James Bond). Of course, it has its flaws - the Covert Action rule violation wasn't even the biggest. While random plots are nice, there are only a few different possible plots - repetition kicks in soon. Also, foiling the plots (the actual objective) is easy - just remove one critical person and it's done. This ease of accomplishing the primary objective makes the game basically about pulling off obscure stunts to catch as many enemy agents as possible for score optimization. Still, the idea is great. A spiritual sequel might be in order (of course, Splinter Cell is basically "what-could-have-been" if Covert Action's raid parts were made in the 2000's).
Logged
Try Liberal Crime Squad, an excellent Liberal Crime adventure game by Toady One and the open source community!
LCS in SourceForge - LCS Wiki - Forum thread for 4.04

Servant Corps

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Other games like LCS?
« Reply #38 on: July 11, 2011, 06:05:41 pm »

Part of the problem is that for you to unlock new missions you either must:
1) Arrest the current Mastermind you're tracking
or 2) Purposely fail a mission, allowing for the Mastermind's plan to progress. For example, maybe our Mastermind wants to use a nuclear bomb. He has to kidnap someone good at nuclear bomb making, steal some enriched uranium, actually create the bomb, and then deploy said bomb. At any point in the plan, if you beat a mission, you foil his plot, and he has to repeat the mission over and over until hje actually succeeds and then move on. Note that if the Mastermind succeeds in his awesome secret plan and nukes, say, Mecca...well...uh...the game doesn't know what to do, so instead the Mastermind get bored and repeat the said "Deploy nuclear bomb" mission.

Because it's so easy to actually interrupt the plot, it means you don't get to fully explore the content of the game, as most of it is hidden because you're too good an Agent to actually access it.
Logged
I have left Bay12Games to pursue a life of non-Bay12Games. If you need to talk to me, please email at me at igorhorst at gmail dot com.

Kay12

  • Bay Watcher
  • Fighting for Elite Liberal values since 2009!
    • View Profile
Re: Other games like LCS?
« Reply #39 on: July 12, 2011, 12:20:54 am »

I thought the subplots weren't connected in any way (possibly because I always beat them...)

In any case, the Mastermind part didn't go as well as it could've. Basically you've got a criminal who isn't doing anything (except rarely messaging one of the others), and the only ways to find intel about him (or sometimes "her") is to complete subplots and gain small bits of information every time you do so. And the only bits you actually need? City and faction.

By the way, there's a finite number of criminal organizations in the game and each has only one Mastermind, I think. Was Covert Action actually beatable, if you caught every one of them?
Logged
Try Liberal Crime Squad, an excellent Liberal Crime adventure game by Toady One and the open source community!
LCS in SourceForge - LCS Wiki - Forum thread for 4.04

Reelyanoob

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Other games like LCS?
« Reply #40 on: July 12, 2011, 03:44:37 am »

I've "beaten" the game on easiest level, and it definitely has a win condition, and a cut-scene / special dialogue or similar: "Congratulation Max: The world is safe from xxx". Presumably Max retires at this point because the game ends.

I started a new game then on the next higher difficulty after that, but got nowhere at all, all the mini-games get much harder. I didn't stick on that for too long though, might give it a go one day as it's quite challenging and very different from the grind on easy level (I kept getting killed by KGB agents I'd tailed by accident, wiretaps had a lot more "killer" circuits etc)

I just had a thought, at higher levels you might be best off "Specializing" e.g. dropping skill in one area really low while raising it in others, to make them more beatable.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2011, 03:50:43 am by Reelyanoob »
Logged

Kay12

  • Bay Watcher
  • Fighting for Elite Liberal values since 2009!
    • View Profile
Re: Other games like LCS?
« Reply #41 on: July 12, 2011, 03:51:51 am »

I always found it a bit amusing that the game makes really little distinction between the true criminal organizations (Amazon cartel, Mafya, Jihadists etc), Commie-bloc secret police (Stassi and KGB) and even the "allied" secret police (MI6 and Mossad)! The only stuff that's truly different from busting an MI6 agent from a Jihadist is that MI6 agents tend to be moles for the actual terrorists, but everything else is the same. Get caught in MI6 facilities an they might force you to free an actual terrorist in exchange for your freedom... idiots.

I *really* think Covert Action could use a loving sequel. Covert Action: The Roguelike would be nice!
Logged
Try Liberal Crime Squad, an excellent Liberal Crime adventure game by Toady One and the open source community!
LCS in SourceForge - LCS Wiki - Forum thread for 4.04

Servant Corps

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Other games like LCS?
« Reply #42 on: July 12, 2011, 10:29:32 am »

I thought the subplots weren't connected in any way (possibly because I always beat them...)
The reason I learnt that they were connected was because there was someone producing an open-source version of Covert Action and laid out how you can create your own subplots, giving the exact example of how a Mastermind wants to deploy a nuclear bomb, and thus has to spawn all these subplots for you to foil.

There's no point to giving you said link to that website because it was on Geocities and Archive.org doesn't save the actual file of the Covert Action download. (Though the remake was playable.) [EDIT: Eh, why not? Here's the link to the remake on archive.org.]

Quote
By the way, there's a finite number of criminal organizations in the game and each has only one Mastermind, I think. Was Covert Action actually beatable, if you caught every one of them?
Yes. Here's the ending for capturing all 26 Masterminds. The manual states that once you capture everyone, you retire.

I *really* think Covert Action could use a loving sequel. Covert Action: The Roguelike would be nice!
I was planning a sequel where you play as a CIA Mastermind. Would that count?
===
EDIT: Oh my god, oh my god!
I found a Geocities mirror that has the download files of the remake! Downloading now.
EDIT2: The music version crashed on me, so I downloaded the non-music version, and playing it.
EDIT3: Argh, I can't actually do anything in Combat without me getting killed. Other than that, I should note that it seems that the developers have only implemented the minigames, and not the other half of the game.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2011, 11:35:22 am by Servant Corps »
Logged
I have left Bay12Games to pursue a life of non-Bay12Games. If you need to talk to me, please email at me at igorhorst at gmail dot com.

Kay12

  • Bay Watcher
  • Fighting for Elite Liberal values since 2009!
    • View Profile
Re: Other games like LCS?
« Reply #43 on: July 12, 2011, 01:06:10 pm »

I was planning a sequel where you play as a CIA Mastermind. Would that count?

Sort of like a cross between Floor 13 and Covert Action? Sounds nice.
Logged
Try Liberal Crime Squad, an excellent Liberal Crime adventure game by Toady One and the open source community!
LCS in SourceForge - LCS Wiki - Forum thread for 4.04
Pages: 1 2 [3]