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Gentlemen, I feel that it is time we go to....

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(I need suggestions is what I'm saying.)
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Author Topic: Ethical Dilemmas: PURPLE ALERT  (Read 36886 times)

Fenrir

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Re: Ethical Dilemmas: How Far Would You Go To Save Someone You Love?
« Reply #195 on: June 30, 2011, 11:31:53 pm »

In any moral system where action A and the equivilent inaction ~A are equally justifiable, we have no net knowledge about the two. Having more knowledge about morality is better than having less, as having more knowledge will let you make choices that are more moral. And that's a good thing.

In any moral system where action A and inaction ~A are equally justifiable, you do have net knowledge about about them; you know that they are both equally justifiable. There is another problem with what you are saying.

Moral Relativism is not a moral system where A and ~A are equally justifiable; Moral Relativism is a system where it does not make sense to say that A and ~A are equally justifiable without stating to whom it is justifiable. A or ~A is only moral or immoral because someone thinks that it is. This is similar to the fact that X is beautiful and ~X is ugly because someone thinks that they are so. Saying that X and ~X are equally beautiful does not make sense without stating to whom it is beautiful or not.

Of course, this is arguing from Meta-Ethical Moral Relativism; you seem to think that I mean Normative Moral Relativism, and I would agree that Normative Moral Relativism is a bad moral philosophy, but only because, if morals are relative, one can not objectively say that one ought to tolerate anything.

No matter what objective moral system you choose, and no matter what the actual ought of the world is, you cannot do worse than the moral null that results from accepting all ought statements as equally valid.

If the position that all ought statements are equally valid is true, then one that believes so is not doing badly at all. Your objection assumes that all statements about what ought to be are not all valid. You are begging the question.

The only thing that moral relativism is actually good for is a cognitive stopsign that says "I no longer wish to discuss ethics with you."

Lo! Here I am. The moral relativist is discussing ethics with you.

It would seem that you have avoided presenting the only thing that could validate your argument against non-objective morals. You have yet to present the logic and observations that prove the existence of some immutable moral code that is carved into the very fabric of reality.

What you do doesn't change your capacity, but it is a measure.  If your thought process is literally "I know I could behave better, but I don't care because it doesn't change anything" then you have in fact proven that your capacity for good behavior is proportional to your immediate perception of return on that investment.

If I know I can behave better, then my capacity is obviously not proportional to my immediate perception of a return on my investment. If I did not have the capacity for both, I could not have chosen in the first place.

Apparently, if it doesn't directly make the world a better place, then personal gain is favorable.

It is only favorable if you think that is favorable, and gain is a relative assessment as well, so you can not make that kind of assertion in a generalized and objective fashion. If my action or inaction would not make the world a better place, but my personal tastes favor that action or inaction, it would still be favorable to chose what I perceive to be the moral good.

Unless you believe that somehow you're incredibly special and very few people have a similar thought process to yours, then it is safe to assume that a considerable portion of the population will operate in the same fashion as you.  If those people behave selfishly any time they're not convinced that their decisions will have broad implications for society, then that's a lot of selfish behavior, the sum of which DOES have broad implications for society.

Certainly, but, in our fictional scenario, I am not making moral decisions for many people. I am making moral decisions for myself, and there is no mechanism by which my moral or immoral behaviour will compel those people to behave in a similar fashion without knowledge of the act.

Or if you don't believe in the above, then I see two directions you can go.  Perhaps you believe that if you hold yourself to a higher standard, that you'll just be better than everyone else, giving up on personal gain while everyone else continues to behave selfishly and it will all be pointless in the end.  What a pretentious view.  Or you could go the other way and assume that enough people hold better standards of behavior than you that your isolated acts of selfishness won't matter.  A world made of good people can support a few bad ones, right?  This one doesn't look so good, either.

That is a false assumption wrapped in a false dilemma wrapped in an appeal to consequences, like some manner of fallacious philosophical turducken.

Appeal to Consequences
The argument, “you should not believe X, because that would mean you are pretentious or selfish, and would be pointless,” is not a valid one. Objective things are not invalid merely because we do not like them.

False Dilemma
You assume that I can either believe you, be pretentious, or be selfish. I shall take option D.

False Assumption
You use words like “better”, “good”,  and “higher standard” like some manner of objective truths. You define what is better and good by equating bad with selfishness, you decide that your first option is pointless, and then you use that to make a general statement about what people should do: “This one doesn't look so good, either.” That is assuming that morals are not relative to individuals, but they are. You even admitted that they are.

The following is my personal perspective, and how I try to live my life. 

Honestly, I am abhorred and uplifted by various instances of human behavior every single day.  I don't like the current state of the world, as I think those who behave selfishly end up in positions of greater influence.  However, I desperately cling to a belief that society can reach a higher standard.  I could not go on living in this world unless I did.

My my, society not good enough for you, eh? You are of far too much moral character to suffer the evils of everyone else, and, if you did not think everyone could be better, you just would not be able to stay here and smell the stink of humanity. You would just have to kill yourself. Such a view would seem to be every bit as pretentious as the option you deemed pretentious. One could say that your whole philosophy is downright arrogant, as, not only do you consider yourself the standard by which humanity should be judged, you are assuming that no one is better than you. You said so in the following post.

It is the knowledge that it is likely other people will encounter similar circumstances, and you cannot realistically expect them to make a better decision than you do.

Do you really consider yourself the paragon of your moral code? I have a hard time believing that you never dissappoint yourself. Even the god of salmon makes mistakes. (Or are you a god-salmon?)

I see society as the sum of all human behavior.  I cannot maintain a belief that that sum can reach a positive unless I can succeed in maintaining a personal standard at the level I wish to see.  Even more importantly, that state of society defined by a standard of responsible, mature, and compassionate behavior X literally cannot exist until a large enough portion of the population actually maintains X as a personal standard.  The first step to achieving this is to achieve it myself, and the more people realize this, the more capable we are of moving forward.

Perhaps, but that is not what you have said. You have asserted that your good action is somehow a demonstration of what you can expect from humanity, and you assert that you can change what you expect from humanity by changing your behaviour.

The best example I know is the earlier one I mentioned regarding pacifism.  It is literally impossible for a world where people do not use violence to exist if I make use of violence.  People say that such idealism is impractical, because it relies on an ideal situation to operate.  They're completely missing the point.  The point is to align oneself with that ideal situation to allow it the potential to exist.

It is also impossible for a world where people do not use violence to exist whether you use violence or not, so I do not see why you would use that to support your decision. Putting yourself at a disadvantage by not using violence will only permit those that have no such scruples to use violence against you. Law enforcement is paid to use violence so the ordinary citizen can be a pacifist from the comfort of a computer chair while he takes solace in the knowledge that, because he is a pacifist, he can expect other people to be pacifists. If he was not, well, all hope for humanity would be lost. Such a good thing that we have him around to do that.

I am not a pacifist. It is an easy thing to say what one would do under improbable circumstances, but I hope I would fight, kill, and die in the defense of the innocent, as such pleases me, and I find men who would not do the same rather distasteful. Other people are not pacifists, your being a pacifist will not make them pacifists, and, sometimes, violence is the only way to deal with violent people.
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Vector

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Re: Ethical Dilemmas: How Far Would You Go To Save Someone You Love?
« Reply #196 on: June 30, 2011, 11:38:37 pm »

Fenrir, would you cool it a bit?  You've basically been spending most of your involvement in this topic telling other people how you find them distasteful, intolerable, or disappointing.
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Patchouli

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Re: Ethical Dilemmas: How Far Would You Go To Save Someone You Love?
« Reply #197 on: July 01, 2011, 12:18:59 am »

I wouldn't.

I'm no pro at looking deep into these things, but it looks like we just got unlucky.

I would be upset, but not enough to kill him.
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Grek

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Re: Ethical Dilemmas: How Far Would You Go To Save Someone You Love?
« Reply #198 on: July 01, 2011, 01:46:21 am »

@Fenir:
If I am understanding your position correctly, now that it has been clarified, you hold that morality is not a universal truth. I can respect that position, but I disagree as a matter of fact that there can be any truth that is not universal.

A and ~A cannot both be true. That's a basic principle of logic. You can't ought to do something and ought not to do something at the same time, no more than you can be present and absent at the same time or blue and not blue at the same time. If you don't forbid A and ~A from both being true, even if it's only for 'ought' and never for 'is', logic falls apart and you get to derive anything from anything, via the principle of explosion.

If you agree with that principle, as I honestly hope you do, than it should be quite clear that all ought statements cannot be equally valid. For any value of X, at least one of the two statements, "We ought X" and "We ought not X", must be untrue. It could be that neither is true, or just one is true, but not both. By accepting moral relativism, you give up (as nihilism does) on all attempts at moral truth save one, but where nihilism has a truth that could, in principle, be true, moral relativism (of any stripe) is logically incoherent and cannot be true. The some bit of moral knowledge that it accepts is knowably false.

I think it would be more honest (and, for that matter, practical) to consider yourself a moral nihilist. If, as you say, no true claims about objective morality can be made, and there (as shown above) cannot be any subjective morality that isn't an impossible morass of contradiction, then there remains a single answer left: morality does not 'exist' in any meaningful sense. It is merely an artifact of the mind.

Even though I don't endorse it, I am forced to admit that moral nihilism can be a useful framework for understanding morality. It dissolves one of the big questions of morality into a few small, easy to resolve ones and lets you come to applicable results in an understandable manner. You apply the epistemological method of your choice (bayesian empericism here) in order to figure out the 'is' of the mind in question and then apply moral nihilism to get from the 'is' to the 'ought' because 'is' defines 'ought' (or at least everyone's experiences thereof) in whatever manner your current theory of the mind correlates the content of the mind to the feeling that something ought or ought not be so.

There is even a morsel of universal moral truth available there, even if it is a rather bleak one: morality is, in so far as it 'is' anything at all, an material thing, subject to knowable material laws and arising from interactions of a material mind that are, in principle, understandable, predictable and available for use as a metric against which objective claims about morality can be measured.

I really don't have the space to justify why an objective moral framework is possible. Doing so would take more characters than the forum allows for a single post, and more time than I have to spend discussing the topic on an internet forum about a video game. But I think it would help to point out the very similar problem of establishing a objective 'is' to the universe. If you can justify why it is ok to accept that "What 'is'?" is an objective question, than you've gotten all of the hard bits out of the way for figuring out how "What 'ought'?" can also be objectively answered.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2011, 01:50:14 am by Grek »
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Tilla

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Re: Ethical Dilemmas: How Far Would You Go To Save Someone You Love?
« Reply #199 on: July 01, 2011, 04:28:18 am »

I would do anything for love; but I won't do that.

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Shambling Zombie

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Re: Ethical Dilemmas: How Far Would You Go To Save Someone You Love?
« Reply #200 on: July 01, 2011, 04:39:25 am »

I don't know what I'd do.

Hopefully I'll never have to find out.
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Dsarker

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Re: Ethical Dilemmas: How Far Would You Go To Save Someone You Love?
« Reply #201 on: July 01, 2011, 04:50:32 am »

I would do anything for love; but I won't do that.




Loving the Meatloaf.
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Grakelin

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Re: Ethical Dilemmas: How Far Would You Go To Save Someone You Love?
« Reply #202 on: July 01, 2011, 07:11:24 am »

Guy sounds like a dick. I'd kill him in a heartbeat.

Not his, of course.
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Siquo

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Re: Ethical Dilemmas: How Far Would You Go To Save Someone You Love?
« Reply #203 on: July 01, 2011, 07:16:26 am »

Doesn't matter if he's a dick or not, that does not imply less worth as a being.

I used to be totally egalitarian in regards to humans, but having procreated changed all that changed. I will happily kill all of you, my friends and the rest of the world in order to save my kid. Pure irrational emotion trumps rational morals.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2011, 08:17:28 am by Siquo »
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Dsarker

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Re: Ethical Dilemmas: How Far Would You Go To Save Someone You Love?
« Reply #204 on: July 01, 2011, 07:41:23 am »

Does not sound like a dick. He's the greatest musician EVAR


Except for Toady.
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Vector

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Re: Ethical Dilemmas: How Far Would You Go To Save Someone You Love?
« Reply #205 on: July 01, 2011, 08:16:57 am »

If you can justify why it is ok to accept that "What 'is'?" is an objective question, than you've gotten all of the hard bits out of the way for figuring out how "What 'ought'?" can also be objectively answered.

I sure as fuck can't, because Kurt Godel.  Or Nietzsche/Derrida, if you prefer.

If you have some sort of objective truth that goes beyond the constraints of naive set theory and mathematics, please let me know.
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Fenrir

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Re: Ethical Dilemmas: How Far Would You Go To Save Someone You Love?
« Reply #206 on: July 01, 2011, 09:05:59 am »

I think it would be more honest (and, for that matter, practical) to consider yourself a moral nihilist. If, as you say, no true claims about objective morality can be made, and there (as shown above) cannot be any subjective morality that isn't an impossible morass of contradiction, then there remains a single answer left: morality does not 'exist' in any meaningful sense. It is merely an artifact of the mind.

That sounds right. I had simply presumed that moral relativism simply meant that morality was simply one's opinion, but it looks like I have been using the words in a rather uncommon fashion, and it certainly would not be very handy to be using common terms in my own particular fashion.

So, yes, I misunderstood what I was defending, and I think perhaps I am a moral nihilist. Apologies for needlessly being confusing.

I really don't have the space to justify why an objective moral framework is possible. Doing so would take more characters than the forum allows for a single post, and more time than I have to spend discussing the topic on an internet forum about a video game. But I think it would help to point out the very similar problem of establishing a objective 'is' to the universe. If you can justify why it is ok to accept that "What 'is'?" is an objective question, than you've gotten all of the hard bits out of the way for figuring out how "What 'ought'?" can also be objectively answered.

Until someone does take the time to explain how I can jump from “is” to “ought”, I see no way that I can. Have you a link to something that does explain it? I would search Google, but there is no guaratee that you would agree with the things I find, as someone may merely be explaining it in the incorrect manner.

Fenrir, would you cool it a bit?  You've basically been spending most of your involvement in this topic telling other people how you find them distasteful, intolerable, or disappointing.

I looked back for the part where I had said that anyone was intolerable, and I found it. I had not remembered doing so because it had been an error in my typing that I never caught, and I had meant quite the opposite. As for the distasteful part, I think it would have been more precise to say that I found distasteful the notion that someone would not use violence to defend the innocent, and that was merely a clumsy disjoint between what I wrote and what I meant.

I did mean that I was disappointed. You did not really answer me, and you simply stated that you have your own “rationality”, and, unless you are using it in a manner that I simply did not recognize, it is impossible for you to have one of your own, but you never clarified or explained.

Just a bit clumsy. I might blame the fact that my previous intellectual hunting grounds were far easier, and this as likely left me overconfident and overzealous.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2011, 09:08:47 am by Fenrir »
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Ethical Dilemmas: How Far Would You Go To Save Someone You Love?
« Reply #207 on: July 01, 2011, 09:15:09 am »

I find the poll results quite interesting. I specifically wrote this scenario to try and make the potential murder victim be as horribly unsympathetic as possible, and not just in ways that are fair to said victim. Yet, the number of people who would kill him and the number who would not are about equal. There is also a sizable minority of indicisive results as well.

Very interesting, but I'll probably be writing up a new dilemma soon. Please do not post suggestions for that, as it may ruin the effect to discuss the scenario beforehand.
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Strife26

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Re: Ethical Dilemmas: How Far Would You Go To Save Someone You Love?
« Reply #208 on: July 01, 2011, 10:00:02 am »

New thread plez, best to start completely over especially for types like me who couldn't be bother to keep up with this one as it progressed.
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Fenrir

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Re: Ethical Dilemmas: How Far Would You Go To Save Someone You Love?
« Reply #209 on: July 01, 2011, 10:03:25 am »

You do not really need to read everything. Every moral dilemma is independent of the others.
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