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[The Merchant Of Menace]

I quite like being able to choose between mutations and bionics, it's very nice for deeper RP, where I can choose to be a genetic monster or a biomechanical killing machine.

[jc6036]

Glyph, I now see your reasoning. Suggestion for a solution: keep some of the mutation/bionic upgrades the same, but put some on only one side of the fence, so that a bit more future thought goes into choosing skill sets.

[Angle]

I rather like the mutations, and feel that they fit perfectly in Cataclysm. Having a more complicated system, like in crawl, would be pretty cool.

[Whales]

Dungeon Crawl is a great game, and I'm happy to see Whales taking some inspiration from it. It's not like Cataclysm is going to become "Dungeon Crawl: Zombie Stew" Or anything. You're not complaining or anything, are you?

There's a difference between being inspired by another game's style or features, and directly copying mechanics from it. Liking how Crawl does mutations and taking inspiration from that is far different from copying a specific mechanic like "eating mutagenic body parts gives you 1 mutation and using a mutation potion gives you up to 3" and "scale mutations start off generic but then develop into specific colors and styles that grant resistances and properties of their own". It's the difference between inspiration and "inspiration".

Am I complaining? I don't know. I think that it's a pretty bad way to go about development, so I'm mentioning it now before it (potentially) gets out of hand. If you like how another game does something, then consider it, and why it works, and find out how those principles may or may not apply to your own game, then design some implementation that works well for your game. You should never directly copy something from another game just because it works in that game; you should always try to come up with an implementation of your own. I'm probably coming off as a little more harsh than I want to be here, but I figured the game is in early enough development that it's worth discussing these things.


Personally, I'd prefer if the game didn't have these fantasy-style "mutations" at all, and radiation just messed up your body in a more quasi-realistic fashion. We already have bionics for body modification (so the functionality is kind of redundant), and I feel like growing fire-resistant skin or wings because you sat in a pool of nuclear waste just... doesn't really suit this game's genre or style well.

It's hardly like crawl is the only game with mutations in it, and actually, the tree / family system I'm proposing is entirely different from how crawl does things.  Crawl doesn't use a tree; it uses mutation levels.  Cataclysm's mutations only have one "level" each, they're an on/off toggle.  Crawl doesn't have mutation families.  Cataclysm doesn't have mutagenic chunks of meat, and crawl doesn't have mutagenic body parts.  Cataclysm had mutations in it well before I'd ever played crawl, and I wasn't aware that crawl had a monopoly on "different types of scales"   I'm not directly copying anything from crawl, I'm creating these things from scratch--to simply see that two games have "mutations" in them and to claim that one copies from the other is slightly absurd.  Yes, I mentioned that distilled mutagens might give you up to three mutations.  Yes, potions of mutation give you three mutations in Crawl.  Does that mean I'm copying from Crawl?  Not at all, it's simply convergent design.  2 doesn't seem like enough, 4 seems like too many.

Do I take inspiration from other games?  Certainly.  You may not know this, but when I started Cataclysm, it was going to be a Left 4 Dead roguelike conversion, in the vein of the popular and excellent DoomRL.  I quickly found that I'd created some neat systems for expansive worlds, and decided to take it deeper than Left 4 Dead, while retaining some features from that original vision, most notably the boomer.

Actually, a big theme in Cataclysm is appropriation of elements from pop culture.  Triffids, graboids, and CHUDs are all borrowed from classic monster movies.  A lot of Lovecraftian monsters are lifted straight from his work.  There's tons of Half-Life references in the game.  The whole thing is very cinematic; there is a certain emphasis on realism, but there's also a strong emphasis on realism within the context of monster/post-apoc media.  There's certain tropes in these genres that I adore, however unrealistic they might be, and monstrous mutations are one of them.  To say that minor mutations--none are that dramatic, there's certainly no wings--do not fit the genre or style of a game with zombies, giant worms, laser guns, bionics, and subterranean laboratories, makes no sense to me!


On the subject of bionics/mutations being overlapping features, well, I see them as fairly seperate.

Bionics:

• Only appear if deliberately installed
• Require skill and strong intelligence to install properly
• Unaffected by any traits
• Are always good, with the exception of a few "failed installations"
• Unlikely to alter playing style dramatically
• Can be activated on demand
• Usually require power to use, meaning the player needs to seek out their power source
• Often impact the player's skills, HP, pain, & other numbers, with a weak or non-existant impact on game mechanics

Mutations:

• Can be deliberately induced, or may appear from a wide range of sources beyond the player's control
• Unaffected by skills or stats
• Affected by the "Robust Genetics" trait
• Can be good or bad
• Can alter the player's routine or playing style dramatically
• "Always on," no mutations can be "activated"
• Similarly, do not require any kind of power
• Have limited impact on skills, HP, pain, etc., but a stronger impact on basic mechanics

Not really that much overlap between the two, honestly.

[Mechanoid]

Re: Mutations from radiation

Maybe two kinds of radiation then, mutagenic and non-mutagenic. Both deal the same radiation damage (so you don't know what direct source causes the mutation) but if there were 100 Barrels of 'Glowing Goo'^tm in a pile, maybe 3 of them would be able to mutate you; but only if you were standing next to one of those 3 special barrels.

[Drevlin]

Hey, the first semi-flame in almost 400 pages! Let me put on my sunglasses



 



Ok guys, go ahead

[G-Flex]

to simply see that two games have "mutations" in them and to claim that one copies from the other is slightly absurd.

That's not what I said or the reasoning I used. I was much more specific than that.

Yes, I mentioned that distilled mutagens might give you up to three mutations.  Yes, potions of mutation give you three mutations in Crawl.  Does that mean I'm copying from Crawl?  Not at all, it's simply convergent design.  2 doesn't seem like enough, 4 seems like too many.

Fair enough.

Actually, a big theme in Cataclysm is appropriation of elements from pop culture.  Triffids, graboids, and CHUDs are all borrowed from classic monster movies.  A lot of Lovecraftian monsters are lifted straight from his work.  There's tons of Half-Life references in the game.  The whole thing is very cinematic; there is a certain emphasis on realism, but there's also a strong emphasis on realism within the context of monster/post-apoc media.

I never said the game should be realistic. Regarding pop culture references, I was probably a little too hasty when mentioning the "boomers"; I didn't really know enough about the game's design to be saying that, as I was basically operating off of first impressions.

There's certain tropes in these genres that I adore, however unrealistic they might be, and monstrous mutations are one of them.  To say that minor mutations--none are that dramatic, there's certainly no wings--do not fit the genre or style of a game with zombies, giant worms, laser guns, bionics, and subterranean laboratories, makes no sense to me!

You're probably right. I think I was interpreting the game more from a realistic-survival point of view, which it certainly does have elements of, and not considering the bigger picture.

[erick1294]

I have to agree, even though the mutations and bionics are alot hard to come by, i'd preefer more different updates from those of mutagenics, because i think that focusing on something that doesn't come that often would not help as much as for example bringing the npc's back

[Whales]

Don't worry, big game features like construction and NPCs are still my primary focus.  Things like reworking mutations are side projects that I might pick up if I need a break from those big projects, or quick changes I can bang out in an hour or so.

[G-Flex]

Well, my alcoholic kung-fu master died because I forgot to have Run Mode on. Whoops.

There's an obvious oversight with the Integrated Toolset body mod, but you probably already know about it: It only affects the crafting menu, so you can't use it as, say, a hammer to board up windows, or scissors to cut up clothing. The fact that it lets you cook food without a power source is a little amusing as well, but that's of secondary concern.


I think there are some balance concerns with character creation, as well, although I'm not sure how they could be addressed. Spending points on skills seems like a waste when it's so easy to learn them from books (my character went from 0 to 3 first aid from one book, whereas 2 points in it costs the same as 1 stat point during chargen, and 4 points in it costs as many as 4 stat points). Skills also seem kind of hard to learn through use; seeing as how the game is survival-oriented, you aren't constantly practicing your combat skills and such like you would in a more typical roguelike. Again, I'm not sure what I'd do about this... maybe skills should be cheaper during chargen, or less easily gained through books, or more easy to train through use, or something. I know that my last character didn't shy away from fighting zombies but still had trouble using a significant amount of the XP in his pool... particularly since his morale was extremely high because he was always drinking. Morale is kind of weird like that, but I guess it works.

[Biag]

Skills also seem kind of hard to learn through use; seeing as how the game is survival-oriented, you aren't constantly practicing your combat skills and such like you would in a more typical roguelike.

But since it's survival-oriented and avoiding combat is frequently the best decision, why would you expect/need high combat skills? I like the distinction there is now between the stealthy-fasty-types and the two-by-four powerhouses.

[jc6036]

One skill I ALWAYS put at least one point into is dodge. It's just way too painful to train up from scratch, and that one point has saved my ass numerous times.

[G-Flex]

Skills also seem kind of hard to learn through use; seeing as how the game is survival-oriented, you aren't constantly practicing your combat skills and such like you would in a more typical roguelike.

But since it's survival-oriented and avoiding combat is frequently the best decision, why would you expect/need high combat skills? I like the distinction there is now between the stealthy-fasty-types and the two-by-four powerhouses.

You need high combat skills for the time when combat is essential. One of the things about the survival genre is that you don't do critical things very often, but they're extremely vital to succeed at when you do.

Also, I was specifically talking about a character who was engaging in combat very often. However, I guess his skills did go up considerably enough, and he did have low intelligence, so I'm not sure anymore.

I think books are the bigger problem. Some skills are almost useless to start off with, because you can gain 2-3 points in them using very common books, whereas some other skills are harder to raise.

[quinnr]

Can you overdose? Because I can't find any issues with swallowing a whole bottle of codine..

[GlyphGryph]

G-Flex, remember that every point in a skill in character creation is actually worth 2 in game. Some skills, like those you can pick up from books... maybe not worth it.

Other skills, like dodging, totally are.

I've actually found there's quite a few ways to successfully play the game that aren't obvious at first, too. The skills menu has been a great boon to many of my builds, in large part because I tend to go with illiterate and skip books altogether. Grabbing 2 points in dodge, 1 points in traps, and 1 point in mechanics, is a HUGE benefit. Pricey, mind you - that's six points. But it is totally worth it. Also, from what I understand, it's going to change over to a system where stat points and skill points are separate soon.

There's definitely plenty of balance issues.

On the other hand, I've never really had difficulty learning skills in game - it only takes four days or so to become extremely proficient at whichever problem resolving technique you use most often, half that if you have a high Int and Fast Learner (which I almost always do.) The skills that are harder to get in-game tend to be the same skills books exist for - crafting and so on. Combat especially seems to raise pretty quickly. I'm cool with that.

I think, character build-wise, there's actually lots of interesting options. Not every combination is viable, but it's fun to fine the ones that work really well. (like starting with a bunch of points in traps and mechanics, and some strength. Mwahaha).

Also, here's a quick list of completely broken things if you ever want the game to get incredibly easy. Pretty much all of these are on the to-fix list, from what I understand:
Integrated Toolset
Stings (Bee and Wasp)
Throwing, especially when combined with stings
Booze (keep in mind that each type gives a separate bonus - my morale is often above 500 because of that)
Pits
Dodging (the way dodging works means that if you get this high enough there is literally no chance for enemies to ever hurt you. It's also remarkably easy to train by finding a single necromancer and letting him go at you for a couple hours)

Integrated Toolset+Shovel+Handful of Stings+some stims and painkiller(especially Adderall, mmm)+Dodging(trained by a necro) pretty much makes you an immortal shining golden god.