Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Girlinhat]

The main purpose, to me, is that it doesn't lead the player on.  Currently, if you want to survive, you must powerlevel yourself to the point that you can kill hulks and some brutes.  This restricts your gameplay, there is no other option available to you.  You can either fight and level and race to get your skill up before the hulks start appearing, forcing you to do something in order to continue playing, OR you can play differently, not skill up, and get outrun and smashed down by the first brute.  You're not allowed to be a flighty, stealthy scavenger or a cowardly nerd.  No, instead you must fight and kill, or else you get killed due to your low level.  You can't enjoy the early game at all, you MUST take the course of action that the game wants you to take.

I would like to see some degree of freedom of progression.  Allow you to be a scavenger with no electronics skill for a bit longer and let you run around from town to town eating and fleeing, if that's the style you desire.

[G-Flex]

I don't think you get what I'm trying to say. If doing well means things get harder, that necessarily means, comparatively speaking, that doing less well means that things are easier. It doesn't really matter which you choose as the baseline. You can't penalize for good play without effectively rewarding poor play.

Yeah, I looked back and realized this after I'd posted, sorry 'bout that.

I think the alternative suggested was just scaling based on how long you've survived, which is a much better system.

That makes some sense.

In effect, the reason I think that scaling based on performance is bad for this sort of game is because, in a very "world against you" game where survival is the main challenge, I don't like the idea that the world revolves around my character like that. It just seems out of place, somehow, like I should be feeling unimportant.

The main purpose, to me, is that it doesn't lead the player on.  Currently, if you want to survive, you must powerlevel yourself to the point that you can kill hulks and some brutes.  This restricts your gameplay, there is no other option available to you.

You're essentially complaining that the only option available is to be able to fend off the challenges the game offers. I don't see the problem.

If there's a problem right now, it's that the game doesn't give many options for fending them off except beating their heads in. However, the construction update is a step in the right direction, I think, regarding giving us more options.

You're not allowed to be a flighty, stealthy scavenger or a cowardly nerd.  No, instead you must fight and kill, or else you get killed due to your low level.  You can't enjoy the early game at all, you MUST take the course of action that the game wants you to take.

I would like to see some degree of freedom of progression.  Allow you to be a scavenger with no electronics skill for a bit longer and let you run around from town to town eating and fleeing, if that's the style you desire.

I agree, but I don't think performance-based difficulty scaling is a valid solution; it's a little cheap and doesn't get at the underlying problems. In my opinion, as I said, the problem is a lack of tools to avoid/confront danger aside from "hit them really hard" and "shoot them".

[GlyphGryph]

I think if the motorcycle mod gets rolled into mainline, but keeping it operational requires, say, some mechanical skill and scavenging for needed parts, that will definitely introduce an alternative.

[Girlinhat]

Have to agree there.  A vehicle would provide a very valid way to escape the hordes, without resorting to simple fighting at all times.  A bicycle would be a nice start as well, no gas, silent, and should outrun any zombie (barely outpacing fasts).

[x2yzh9]

But it should also take into account your strength/dexterity for a bicycle as well as a mechanics skill and needing to scavenge for parts, and maybe a cycling skill? I'm not sure.

[Angle]

I think an actual Run option would probably suffice.

[G-Flex]

Have to agree there.  A vehicle would provide a very valid way to escape the hordes, without resorting to simple fighting at all times.  A bicycle would be a nice start as well, no gas, silent, and should outrun any zombie (barely outpacing fasts).

One root cause of this whole issue is that, in the real world, humans get away with specializing at different things because we're social. In this case, a character wouldn't even necessarily have to know how to physically defend himself from monsters terribly well (although some degree of competence would probably be important) if he has other things to offer people in exchange for that protection.

[kulik]

Since Cataclysm started as L4D roguelike it will take some time to open up other than bash and shoot everything possibilities of survival. Yet i feel we're heading the right way.
I'll try to make a "pacifist" run using only traps, spike pits, pheromones, molotovs, grenades and fast feet keeping the combat skills as low as possible to see how it goes and how long i can keep up.

[HailFire]

Okay, emulating this on VirtualBox now- no crashes yet!

Also, throwing is amazing. With 5 throw, 3-4cut/pierce/melee, and almost 4 dodge, I'm taking out whole crowds of greens and boomers with 3 screwdrivers and a pair of combat knives- I can now sometimes kill greens before they can close into melee.

Also killed my first necromancer and brute! (and my starting bunker got overrun by triffids)

[Flare]

The main purpose, to me, is that it doesn't lead the player on.  Currently, if you want to survive, you must powerlevel yourself to the point that you can kill hulks and some brutes.  This restricts your gameplay, there is no other option available to you.  You can either fight and level and race to get your skill up before the hulks start appearing, forcing you to do something in order to continue playing, OR you can play differently, not skill up, and get outrun and smashed down by the first brute.  You're not allowed to be a flighty, stealthy scavenger or a cowardly nerd.  No, instead you must fight and kill, or else you get killed due to your low level.  You can't enjoy the early game at all, you MUST take the course of action that the game wants you to take.

I would like to see some degree of freedom of progression.  Allow you to be a scavenger with no electronics skill for a bit longer and let you run around from town to town eating and fleeing, if that's the style you desire.

I think the bear trap allows you to do that to a degree, though obviously not to the point that you can flee from a mob of hulks or fast zombies. Copious numbers of smoke bombs on the other hand might help, and if we have some sort of chemical gas that destroys the eyes, or a flashbang all the better. Come to think of it, wouldn't there be a lot of blind zombies walking around if someone detonated a nuclear device? Firestorms not withstanding, I would think most zombies would be stupid enough to stare at the blindingly bright light that appeared on the horizon.

[ThtblovesDF]

In "reality" being a nerd in a zombie outbreak... would be harder then being a muscular guy who can easily defeat any zombies... - but possible
In Cataclysm,  being a nerd in a zombie outbreak... is harder then being a muscular guy who can easily defeat any zombies... - but possible

Wait, I don´t see a issue here at all...

[Whales]

Admittedly I haven't played in a while, but the game already gets harder as time goes on, does it not? Special zombies start showing up more, foods start going bad so that scavenging isn't as easy, etc.

I for one am 100% against any kind of level or power based scaling. Hated it in every game I've seen it in.

I honestly never understood the desire for it. If the world is going to "level up" with you, whats the point of leveling up? Why even have any kind of character advancement if it's made meaningless by everything else staying equal to you?

Actually, I agree entirely.  It's a roguelike trait I'd like to get away from; most roguelikes have goblins on level 1, orcs on level 2, ogres on level 3, trolls on level 4... and they're all the exact same monster, except scaled to provide more or less the same degree of challenge to a player at that level.

I try to get away from that by at least making special zombies unique in some way; a fast zombie isn't just a tougher version of a normal zombie, it's got unique advantages that call for a slightly different strategy.

For a long time, all zombie types spawned concurrently at the start of the game.  While this made the game feel less player-centric, it was also genuinely less fun.  It was an information overload instead of slowly revealing things over time, it didn't give the player any deadlines to meet (i.e. "be able to handle a skeleton by 8 PM"), and deadlines are fun, and it was just too hard right off the bat.  Encountering a zombie hulk as your first monster is no fun.

The main purpose, to me, is that it doesn't lead the player on.  Currently, if you want to survive, you must powerlevel yourself to the point that you can kill hulks and some brutes.  This restricts your gameplay, there is no other option available to you.  You can either fight and level and race to get your skill up before the hulks start appearing, forcing you to do something in order to continue playing, OR you can play differently, not skill up, and get outrun and smashed down by the first brute.  You're not allowed to be a flighty, stealthy scavenger or a cowardly nerd.  No, instead you must fight and kill, or else you get killed due to your low level.  You can't enjoy the early game at all, you MUST take the course of action that the game wants you to take.

I would like to see some degree of freedom of progression.  Allow you to be a scavenger with no electronics skill for a bit longer and let you run around from town to town eating and fleeing, if that's the style you desire.

That style is totally viable.  It might just be because I'm highly skilled at the game, but I have no problem not becoming a melee / firearms badass and still surviving.  It is entirely possible to be a flight-based character with the right know-how, tools, and a healthy level of cleverness.  You just have to think outside the box a bit.  Lots of players are trained to kill all enemies in roguelikes, so that part might be pretty difficult.  You also have to use the environment to your advantage, which is another thing roguelike players aren't used to, and so they might not think of.

Of course, having an NPC bodyguard will make it easier for those without the Cataclysm experience to make it solo

[h3lblad3]

Of course, having an NPC bodyguard will make it easier for those without the Cataclysm experience to make it solo

That word, I do not think it means what you think it means.

[beorn080]

Perhaps a walk/run/sprint toggle and a stamina meter. Walking is the current speed, enough to slowly outrun the shambling greens, run would be the current fleetfooted speed, and sprint would be fleetfooted+quick. Give it 100 stamina, regenerate maybe 2-3 each round. Walking costs the same as regen speed, so it would effectively be free, though wouldn't regen while walking. Running is 5 per movement, and sprinting is 10.

[Whales]

Of course, having an NPC bodyguard will make it easier for those without the Cataclysm experience to make it solo

That word, I do not think it means what you think it means.

Haha, ummm, yeah.  I was tired when I posted that.  You know what I meant I think