Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[anomaly]

Hi, I haven't posted for a long time, just wanted to mention something that has been bothering me for a long time about DF but I never really thought about posting until now.

Generally speaking, damage to the central nervous system  (including the spinal column) is in fact permanent in humans and the DF nervous system model accurately reflects this.

However, most peripheral nerves, including the large nerve bundles that project out of your spinal column, are capable of some degree of regeneration - the DF nervous system model does not accurately reflect this.  Sometimes surgery is required to aid this process, but nerves are perfectly capable of regrowing on their own if the proper conditions are met.  you can read more about this process here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroregeneration

I mention this because I had my L5 left sciatic nerve bundle severed a few years ago near where it comes out of the spinal column.  This meant paralysis for a large portion of my leg including the dorsiflexer (shin muscle) and parts of my foot.  With surgery and a few months of physical therapy, I regained about 90% functionality of muscles controlled by the L5 sciatic nerve.

Admittedly this was modern surgery and physical therapy, but it was entirely possible that my nerve damage would have also regenerated on its own.  And it happens naturally on a regular basis, especially when it comes to piercing or stabbing wounds, as you can see in the wiki article.  On top of all of this, aren't dwarves just naturally tougher than humans?  something like this would be more likely in a creature that is considered "tougher."

So my question is this: why can't dwarves have a chance to regenerate peripheral nerve damage if it occurs naturally in humans IRL?  is it not Fun enough?

[ImBocaire]

In fact, in DF, even if you mod neural tissue to regenerate, motor and sensory nerves still do not regenerate. It's a multi-faceted problem. First of all, nerves are not nearly as easy to sever in real life as they are in Dwarf Fortress, especially in the absence of other wounds. Second, the motor and sensory nerves in Dwarf Fortress are not actually modeled the way the rest of the tissues are; they are not "tissues" in a normal sense. Basically, if a creature has the [HAS_NERVES] tag, then all their body parts that can feel, move voluntarily, or both have the possibility of their motor or sensory nerves being severed. It's entirely possible to remove the [HAS_NERVES] tag and still have a fully functional creature; in fact, an improved creature, because their motor and sensory nerves will effectively be un-severable.

The reason nervous tissue has a 0% heal rate in DF isn't because none of the nerves ever heal, it's because the nervous tissue that is modeled in the body doesn't heal. The motor and sensory nerves are not modeled by Dwarf Fortress nervous tissue. Even if they were, there exists as of yet no way to reconnect severed *anything* in this game, be it arms, legs, fingers, toes, or nerves. In DF, "severed" means "gone forever."

[IT 000]

Nerves should be more difficult to hit over all. It seems like every other stab is cutting a nerve or a motor nerve. If I accidentally nicked myself while slicing tomatoes, I wouldn't lose control of my entire hand.

[Bohandas]

Nerve Damage, is treatable, but requires very fine levels of precision. If it is made treatable in game then some kind of surgical loupe tool or something (it should also need an extremely fine grade of surgical thread, but this need not be a new item type, it could easily simply require the use of thread of above baseline quality; For the dwarves of norse legends crafting suitably thin yet strong thread would be far below their highest expression of this type of craft). 

[Neonivek]

Generally speaking, damage to the central nervous system  (including the spinal column) is in fact permanent in humans and the DF nervous system model accurately reflects this

From what scientists have found out... This isn't exactly true. The brain can heal at an extremely slow rate.

Mind you as far as the game is concerned the only thing the brain should heal is bruising.

Anyhow Nerve Damage is crazy as it is. It is extremely easy to cause, never currently heals, and any damage tends to almost cripple your character rather then the many multitudes of relatively superfluous nerve damage.

[Broseph Stalin]

I like the fact that nerve injuries are serious risks but treating them should be difficult not impossible and they shouldn't be so easy to cause.

Dirt Farmer kicks you in the foot!
A motor nerve has been severed!
You're progress means nothing!
You're character is useless!

[tHe_silent_H]

Dirt Farmer kicks you in the foot!
A motor nerve has been severed!
You're progress means nothing!
You're character is useless!

Not quite, buy a crutch, use macro you used for training stealth/swimming, come back in 3 hours(always buy a crutch at the start of the game imo, just sell spear or copper dagger for it)

however, i would like nerve damage to be treatable-ish

[G-Flex]

Generally speaking, damage to the central nervous system  (including the spinal column) is in fact permanent in humans and the DF nervous system model accurately reflects this

From what scientists have found out... This isn't exactly true. The brain can heal at an extremely slow rate.

Mind you as far as the game is concerned the only thing the brain should heal is bruising.

The problem here is that the game really has no notion of very minor brain damage. For instance, you don't really get concussions in DF. This is problematic and should be addressed, as that sort of thing is very vital to real combat.

Regarding the brain healing at a slow rate... that really does depend on the extent and type of the damage. It's complicated. But yeah, for our intents and purposes, only very minor damage (the kind that doesn't really happen yet or otherwise isn't properly simulated) should.

[Neonivek]

Sounds like Toady may have to start a Brain Arc.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Sounds like Toady may have to start a Brain Arc.

I like this idea.
Oh, wait, you mean "brain damage," not "dwarves using their brain."

Still a good idea. I couldn't resist...

[Funk]

nerves need to be worked on so it can model, Nerve compression syndrome(Trapped nerves) of press points.
dito brain damage.

[anomaly]

yes, nerve damage is over the top, but even the fact that nerves do not ever heal is unrealistic.  permanent injuries are very serious, they should not be removed from the game but they should be harder to acquire.  it seems like every other fight with a were bat will end up with some kind of permanent injury and most of these come in the form of nerve damage.

Dwarves should probably not be modern surgical geniuses but they should be more adept than our ancestors were.  If you look at a medical history of the nervous system, there were unconfirmed reports of successful surgeries involving the nervous system over 2000 years ago.  It's also clear that at various times in western civilization, ancient surgeons had at least a rudimentary understanding of how the nervous system worked, e.g. you can see Hippocrates recommending to other surgeons in his writing to not disturb areas where nerves lie when performing surgeries on the shoulder.

I think my system ideally would allow restoration of function to be based on the severity of the injury, the skill of the doctor and the toughness of the dwarf.  restoration of function could also occur naturally but the chances would be better with a skilled doctor performing surgery. 

There might also be more stages of function other than "working" and "not working" e.g. motor nerve damage in a leg that has been repaired by a doctor and healed might result in the ability to walk/run but balance has been interfered with.  Or, a healed arm might allow the use of a shield but is too impaired to skillfully wield a blade anymore.

Generally speaking, damage to the central nervous system  (including the spinal column) is in fact permanent in humans and the DF nervous system model accurately reflects this

From what scientists have found out... This isn't exactly true. The brain can heal at an extremely slow rate.

Mind you as far as the game is concerned the only thing the brain should heal is bruising.

actually it seems like scarification is the main reason why central nervous injuries result in permanent impairment, the wounds themselves heal relatively quickly but scar tissue makes restoration of functionality nearly impossible.