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[Euld]

Hehe thanks guys

If you think we're upset with you for being an arch-conservative heretic, why would you think we'd be upset with you for being gay?

I think he was worried that we would take harshly to the idea of somebody going about their daily 'gay bashing', while being homosexual themselves. It's the kind of thing Joseph McCarthy would do.

Yeah this was what I was worried about, I'm glad my fears were very unjustified.  Thanks for the encouragement guys   All of my friends have been extremely supportive, some support me in being gay, others support me sticking with God with the hope of turning straight someday.  Which is fine, right now I'm not sure which I want to choose.  I'm questioning God right now, but I was practically swimming in spiritual experiences during college, even to the point of witnessing and practicing bonafide miracles (at least hard-to-deny ones).  God even told me the future once.  I asked him to make our football team lose before the playoffs because a friend had gotten roped into doing some kind of video editing for them, and he hated it.  If they lost before the playoffs, his job would end sooner, so I prayed for them to lose.  God told me "NO."  I asked again, and felt the same, extremely strong impression of "NO.  NOT HAPPENING."  And later... our football team went to the playoffs, for the first time in years I think.  That never happened to me before, I was spooked out of my mind. 

But now that I'm out of college and away from my circle of Christian friends... it's like God's not even there anymore.  I used to rely on the Bible and going to church to keep me in one piece, now I don't get anything from them.  I can't deny that God has changed my life and supported me in resisting my gay affections, but now it's like he left me all alone in the rain.  So my issue with Christianity isn't with the rules, or how the Bible is interpreted, or whether homosexuality is a sin or not.  It's with God himself.  If he intentionally created me this way, why didn't he say so and encourage me to embrace it?  But if this is a sin, why am I suddenly alone and starved for the spirituality I used to get from the Bible and church?  Part of me wants to just forget about it all and settle down with some nice dude.  But the rest of me still wonders :/

Oh yeah, couple other facts: I do have some straight attractions that came about during those spiritual college years, but those attractions aren't as strong as my gay ones.  Photos of breasts don't excite me, but I catch myself sneaking looks at women's shirt-covered busts.  And, I have had a sexual experience with a man, not sure if it counts as losing my virginity though o_O  I was hanging out with three male friends, we got drunk, one got so drunk he blacked out, and suddenly decided I needed to learn to kiss and to touch him in... places.  He seduced me bad <_<;;  I gave him oral, but that was it, we were too drunk to even uh, yeah, not much else was gonna happen.  I didn't like the experience, but that was probably because I realized too late that he wasn't himself, and felt humiliated.  And turns out he's a biter x_X  had some nasty bruises on my face, neck, shoulder, and back.  Not fun.

[Max White]

Well, if you can't figure out for sure if you are gay or not, then why not just take life as it comes?
When you find somebody you feel attracted to, maybe even love, then do what ever it takes to be with them, regardless of gender. If you find yourself with a girl, be happy you have a girlfriend, and if you find yourself with a boy, be happy you have a boyfriend! Anything else is just speculation.
I'm a straight guy, never been attracted to guys before, but if I found myself attracted to a guy I would totally go for it. So just do what comes naturally, and makes you happy.

Also, if god made you, and made you gay, and hates gays, he is just cruel and hateful. Even if humanity had proof that there was a god like this, I would choose not to worship him because I would object to such an evil deity. If you find that your beliefs bring you to god, then know that god is loving and would accept you for your sexuality, regardless of what an ancient book written by homophobic men says.

[G-Flex]

some support me in being gay, others support me sticking with God with the hope of turning straight someday.  Which is fine, right now I'm not sure which I want to choose.

Straight camps don't work. You cannot "turn someone straight". People have suffered seriously psychological trauma from this, and I say this for the sake of your own well-being.

I asked him to make our football team lose before the playoffs because a friend had gotten roped into doing some kind of video editing for them, and he hated it.  If they lost before the playoffs, his job would end sooner, so I prayed for them to lose.  God told me "NO."  I asked again, and felt the same, extremely strong impression of "NO.  NOT HAPPENING."  And later... our football team went to the playoffs, for the first time in years I think.  That never happened to me before, I was spooked out of my mind.

This is hardly a specific enough revelation to count as... well, anything. By your standards, flipping a coin could have "told you the future" as well. If you told you the final score, well, that would have been a little improbable. Perhaps you need to raise the bar a little higher when it comes to witnessing miracles, because getting the right answer out of a yes-or-no question is so remarkably easy to do by coincidence no matter how you do it. You were probably raised in the sort of religious culture that wanted to see that in just about everything, so I can't really blame you much... but come on, think about that for a second.



Here's my perspective: You know why God helped you "resist your gay affections"? Because you've been taught that you should, and that he would, since day one. We all grow up with tons of expectations and pressure placed on us, and we feel it in different ways, whether it's from "God", another spiritual method of self-reflection, or any other form of anxiety and self-doubt. Hell, I've been out of high school for several years, and every so often I still have dreams about missing project deadlines or showing up to tests unprepared, and that's nothing as identity-forming or socially important as what you're talking about, and who knows how I would have experienced those same anxieties had I a belief in God. That kind of thing is all normal, whether you're a Christian or a Buddhist or a Secular Humanist. I just really, really hope you can come to accept what you are and realize that it means absolutely no harm to anyone, even you.

Oh yeah, couple other facts: I do have some straight attractions that came about during those spiritual college years, but those attractions aren't as strong as my gay ones.  Photos of breasts don't excite me, but I catch myself sneaking looks at women's shirt-covered busts.

Something a lot of people don't seem to get is that human sexuality isn't just binary or ternary. Words like "homosexual" and "bisexual" and "heterosexual" don't really begin to ever describe a particular individual. How you feel towards different genders/sexes is, in reality, probably as nuanced as how you feel about any other extremely broad subjects. It's allowed to be nuanced; you'll only hurt yourself by assuming you have to fall strictly into some umbrella term.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

All of my friends have been extremely supportive, some support me in being gay, others support me sticking with God with the hope of turning straight someday.  Which is fine, right now I'm not sure which I want to choose.

Euld, you told us straight up in your opening post that you had a single moment of realization that you were gay. You can't choose to be straight anymore than I can choose to not like bacon. Delicious, irresistable bacon, all crisp and mouth-watering.....er...I digress.

I'm questioning God right now, but I was practically swimming in spiritual experiences during college, even to the point of witnessing and practicing bonafide miracles (at least hard-to-deny ones).

People are very prone to error in the interpretation, especially when they think they see things that they want to see.

God even told me the future once.  I asked him to make our football team lose before the playoffs because a friend had gotten roped into doing some kind of video editing for them, and he hated it.  If they lost before the playoffs, his job would end sooner, so I prayed for them to lose.  God told me "NO."  I asked again, and felt the same, extremely strong impression of "NO.  NOT HAPPENING."  And later... our football team went to the playoffs, for the first time in years I think.  That never happened to me before, I was spooked out of my mind. 

Why wouldn't you see that as coincidence?

But now that I'm out of college and away from my circle of Christian friends... it's like God's not even there anymore.  I used to rely on the Bible and going to church to keep me in one piece, now I don't get anything from them.

This is probably due to behavioral reinforcement. When people who have a conviction interact with others who share the same conviction, their belief in it is reinforced. That isn't happening to you now that you've left the circle, so your conviction is waning.

I can't deny that God has changed my life and supported me in resisting my gay affections, but now it's like he left me all alone in the rain.

You can fight other people and win, but you can never fight yourself and win. Don't try to resist your affections, it isn't good for a person's emotional state.

It's with God himself.  If he intentionally created me this way, why didn't he say so and encourage me to embrace it?  But if this is a sin, why am I suddenly alone and starved for the spirituality I used to get from the Bible and church?  Part of me wants to just forget about it all and settle down with some nice dude.  But the rest of me still wonders :/

Quite confusing indeed. I'll be frank with you here: I think it's because your god is all inside your head. You didn't want to be gay because of your religious convictions that existed before hitting puberty and discovering that you are gay, so the god inside your head didn't say anything about it. A form of denial, basically. You used to feel more convicted about this god due to the reinforcement of your conviction from your enviornment, and this gave you emotional experiances from the Bible and church. Now that the reinforcement is gone, the emotional value of these things has decreased.

So, if you want my advice: That part of you that wants to forget about your god? Listen to what it has to say.

[Phmcw]

Dude, seriously? The almighty creator of the universe, lord of the world, witness of all goods and evils, take interest in the future of your college football team? Even the fact that you would be a psychic would be more probable.

[Heliman]

From a logical standpoint, if god was willing to alter the events of a football game in your favor for praying then he'd probably have time to deal with more catastrophic events, like, you know, World War II.

[Vector]

*sigh*

Yeah, I tried to turn myself straight, and it didn't work.  Rather, I tried really, really hard to ignore the way I felt and pretend it didn't exist, and in the end I was still checking out women and having random people ask if I was a lesbian.

(Pictures of naked breasts don't turn me on either, by the way.  They are pretty funny-looking.  There's more than one way to find a gender attractive--not to say that you're bisexual or something, just that for anyone uninterested in naked breasts, that's an okay way to be, too)

The thing about the "seducing" model is that it generally makes it so that you're not supposed to enjoy yourself, and so that you evade responsibility in a way.  Someone attracts you, but you don't have responsibility for your reactions... it's their seduction, rather than your interest, that fits the bill.  If you enjoy yourself, or if you're interested, why posit your own interest as such a bad thing?  Isn't love supposed to be good?

I'm also going to add that... well, there's not only one brand of Christianity, you know.  You may need to give up your faith in the way that you experienced it, but there are lots of other flavors that aren't as, er, problematic.

Basically, I think you should do what makes you feel most happy and satisfied.  It's up to you to discover what that is.  But, for now, all I can do is wish you good luck.  It gets easier once you start asking yourself these difficult questions.  Really.

[freeformschooler]

I'm also going to add that... well, there's not only one brand of Christianity, you know.  You may need to give up your faith in the way that you experienced it, but there are lots of other flavors that aren't as, er, problematic.

whatvectorsaid.jpg (we need one of those)

Not all Christian groups or belief systems are anti-LGBT. "Christians" just get clumped in with the vocal majority that hangs around the bible belt.

[Leafsnail]

But Euld's problem is "God has abandoned me" rather than "I don't like the fact that God doesn't like my sexuality".  Changing to another branch of Christianity wouldn't necessarily help that.

[Phmcw]

But Euld's problem is "God has abandoned me" rather than "I don't like the fact that God doesn't like my sexuality".  Changing to another branch of Christianity wouldn't necessarily help that.

Welcome to godless heathen club, then.Don't worry, we've fixed the thermostat a while ago.
Come for the sex, stay for the science and the tolerance. House of enlightened minds since Greek antiquity.

[freeformschooler]

Yeah, you're right. It wouldn't. But previously we were having a discussion I believe on how the Christian church is incompatible with homosexuality. I was just pointing out that's not necessary true.

EDIT: That might have been in the other thread. If it was, I'll let someone else apply their own palm to my face.

But Euld's problem is "God has abandoned me" rather than "I don't like the fact that God doesn't like my sexuality".  Changing to another branch of Christianity wouldn't necessarily help that.

Welcome to godless heathen club, then.Don't worry, we've fixed the thermostat a while ago.
Come for the sex, stay for the science and the tolerance. House of enlightened minds since Greek antiquity.

If Steve Jobs is caught using Windows in his spare time, does the thermostat break again?

[RedKing]

I obviously missed out on the whole "crazy religious conservative" vibe. Good on ya, though.

I tend to subscribe to Ron White's theory that we're all gay, it's just a matter of to what extent. 

[Willfor]

I'm glad people are assuming that a single experience of "God has abandoned me" equals "I MUST NOT BE A CHRISTIAN ANYMORE". It's not like this issue has come up before for almost anyone who is a Christian.

[freeformschooler]

I'm glad people are assuming that a single experience of "God has abandoned me" equals "I MUST NOT BE A CHRISTIAN ANYMORE". It's not like this issue has come up before for almost anyone who is a Christian.

Wait, who's assuming that? Euld?

[RedKing]

Yeah, you're right. It wouldn't. But previously we were having a discussion I believe on how the Christian church is incompatible with homosexuality. I was just pointing out that's not necessary true.

I should probably stay out of this line of discussion, but it's worth noting that UU (since that was the main alternative denomination I saw mentioned) is only marginally "Christian". My wife is UU, and our kids are sorta getting raised UU. I say "sorta" because it's hard for me to imagine how one would be a "devout" Unitarian, beyond just really really loving the act of drinking coffee. 

While YMMV between specific UU congregations, my experience has been that it's not so much progressive Christianity as it is "interfaith ecumenism" as a religion. Beyond that though, there are certainly other mainstream(er) denominations that are gay-friendly such as United Church of Christ.