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[Leafsnail]

I'm not sure if "it's better than countries with a much lower standard of education and living" is that much of a justification, really.

[scriver]

You could bicker about whether it's good or not good enough all day long, what's important is that it's getting better. That's what they call making progress. So what if you're a bit behind the rest? It's not like homosexuality has been accepted for very long in the rest of the (western) world either. Hell, it's been less than forty years since the Swedish state stopped defining homosexuality as a mental disease. It's all a very recent development, for all of us.

[Leafsnail]

Delaying the repeal of a law which prevents the openly gay from serving in the army is progress...?

[scriver]

No, the rising support for homosexual people's right to marry (and homosexuality in general) is.

[G-Flex]

You could bicker about whether it's good or not good enough all day long, what's important is that it's getting better. That's what they call making progress. So what if you're a bit behind the rest?

Acknowledgement of our problems and backwardness is the reason why it's improvement. The only reason it's "getting better" is because people have realized how behind we are, and why it's such a problem. Things aren't going to continue to get better if we all just assume that they are.

[scriver]

...Yes, but in context of being a reply to my post; no. It's not a competition. It's not a matter of prestige. It's not about being "the most progressive country in the world". Support for homosexuality is rising because more and more people are realising it is right and that the current state is wrong. It has nothing to do with how any other nations are.

I never said nothing should be done about the matter. I never said society would change by itself. I simply said that you're not that far behind, and that the growing support means that you are going in the right direction, and that that is what matters (as it means you'll be able to change society for the better when the opinion becomes large enough). As I said, go back just a few decennia and you'll find the same situation in all other Western countries. It's all a recent movement and a recent societal change.

[Montague]

I thought DADT was a decent compromise of a policy. You can be as gay as you want and be in the military, so long as you keep your private business to yourself.

Personally, I think thats the best course of action anyways. Keep the bedroom out of your professional life. I never really agreed that gay soldiers should get discharged if outted, but I really don't agree with letting warfighters air out their sexuality out in the open in a professional environment like the military.

In the end, this change in policy won't effect much. There won't be any huge morale issues about this, disciplined warfighters do not form lynchmobs against their comrades in a functional unit.

[freeformschooler]

Wait, MetalSlimeHunt... are you saying that the fact that 36% of adults think that gay relations should be illegal, even if they're in private, is evidence of progressive attitudes towards homosexuals?

Sounds about right to me.

It sure doesn't. Over a third of the country thinking your sexual orientation is an abomination enough to be made illegal is not indicative of a "progressive" attitude. The US is not progressive at all by Western standards when it comes to homosexual rights. That's just a fact. Our policy and our social attitudes are lagging behind Western Europe, Canada, and Australia, to name a few. Yes, they're better than a lot of other places. That does not make us "progressive".

No, we're not even near the level of "progressive" as the rest of the West. That's not what I was saying at all, and I'm pretty sure MSH wasn't either. I'm jealous of Canada particularly, but also those other places. However, we are more "progressive" in terms of approval of homosexuality than we used to be.

"Over a third of the country thinking your sexual orientation is an abomination" is still god-awful, but I wasn't pointing out that it wasn't. I was pointing out that compared to where we were even a decade ago, it's progress.

edit: Though if it gets WORSE again, which surely it won't, hopefully... then more incentive for me to move to Canada.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

"Over a third of the country thinking your sexual orientation is an abomination" is still god-awful, but I wasn't pointing out that it wasn't. I was pointing out that compared to where we were even a decade ago, it's progress.

Especially since that decade ago, it was far closer to "Over two-thirds of the country thinking your sexual orientation is an abomination.".

[Montague]

(here's comes the religious shit-storm)

What does "abomination" mean anyways? Hebrew texts use it to describe things like eating shell-fish.

So all those Christians eating fired mussels or shrimp scampi at the local Red Lobster after church on sunday might as well be having a big gay orgy in a crack house.

I'm... not quite sure homosexuality is a great of a sin or that "abomination" is quite as awful as it sounds. Its something like "No, that's disgusting" and not so much like "You have fallen down a vast chasm".

[freeformschooler]

I've never personally heard "abomination" used to refer to anything homosexual.

Also, Montague, I think you need to take a step back for a moment, right here:

(here's comes the religious shit-storm)

It is unlikely on this forum that your post will cause a religious shitstorm. Unless your definition of a shitstorm includes regular educational experiences as pertaining to the bible and other religious texts.

[Montague]

I've never personally heard "abomination" used to refer to anything homosexual.

Also, Montague, I think you need to take a step back for a moment, right here:

(here's comes the religious shit-storm)

It is unlikely on this forum that your post will cause a religious shitstorm. Unless your definition of a shitstorm includes regular educational experiences as pertaining to the bible and other religious texts.

Bringing up religion always creates a shitstorm in this forum, silly goose.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abomination_%28Bible%29

and there is that right there...

I've clearly not been reading your holy texts, homosexuality is almost always referred to as an "abomination" in almost every Abrahamic text where it bothers to mention it.

If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them. (NKJ, Leviticus 20:13) and that's just the bible...

[freeformschooler]

Bringing up religion always creates a shitstorm in this forum, silly goose.

But not in the way you approached it here.

I'd like to thank you for sending me the link, though. I've been going to a Christian church for all my life and never heard homosexuality referred to as an abomination. Learn something new every day!

[Vector]

If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them. (NKJ, Leviticus 20:13) and that's just the bible...

Haha, my step-grandmother left a copy of that quotation lying around in her guest cottage, where we were going to be staying >_>

Yeah, Missouri is not very progressive.

[freeformschooler]

I'm glad the church I go to sometimes nowadays hardly puts any stock in a fair portion of leviticus. We have members across the LGBT spectrum.

Obviously none of this matters at all for the Unitarians whose "church" (?) I now go to most of the time.