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[lordnincompoop]

I swear I posted something earlier today about all this. Hmm.

What was so vital about making absolutely certain it was LYLO?

Well, what I was taught was that Bad Things would happen when claiming before MYLO/LYLO unless specified. I've generally stuck to that rule and, frankly, I'd rather not get NKed the night after.

LNCP:  Why did you choose Jim and Irony to snoop?

I chose both targets because I've had some trouble reading them reliably in the past for various reasons, and because they were both lower down on my scumlist. That made them good targets for a snooping, since I'd be less likely to spot something otherwise.

Since I'm doing something else Sunday, this is it, I'm afraid.

[IronyOwl]

Also, I wasn't going to waste the roleblock on someone like Dariush.

Why not?

As for why I flip-flopped on Max White, I've never seen him play scum.  So, you know--asked him some questions, decided he was "townie enough for now" (because his answers were okay, if not great)

You didn't call him "townie enough," though, you called him "strong town." How exactly do those two get confused?

got caught up in other silly shit, kept on trying to give him recommendations to improve his playstyle since I was ICing him elsewhere, and then decided that role-fishing was the last straw (and admitting to being scum was the super-last straw).  I really didn't expect him to do something like that, especially as a townie.

Two problems with this.

First of all, you didn't seem to mind it that much when it happened. You pointed it out, but didn't go any further. Why? Was it scummy only in retrospect for some reason? You even went on to attack Dariush in between that and mentioning him again.

Secondly, how exactly did you forget that he had rolefished? Something subtler or less significant I could see, but how exactly does one completely forget about something that simple, which completely reverses your opinion of him, while talking about him?

Pretty simple.

Are you trying to say I should have been able to infer this on my own, or just nervously declaring your explanation sound?

What I don't really like is your leading question.  What does his roleflip say about my flip-flopping?  God, I don't know--generally, other people are the ones who decide what it says.  I thought a guy was town and was right, and then I thought he was scum and was wrong?  It says my reader is imperfectly calibrated, I guess.  I'm not exactly surprised.

I don't like this. You call my question leading, sort of... defer judgement, or something, and then declare it no big deal anyway. Feels weaselly.

Jim: Who are your other suspects? I've seen you attack Max since the beginning, and it's going to be reeeeal interesting if Max is lynched, and turns out to be town - when you haven't really fielded any other suspects.

It almost feels like you're just pounding the noobie because he can't stand up to you. Yes, the things you're pointing out are there. But surely someone else catches your eye.

Right, so let me get this straight.

I've got good reason to go after Max White. But that makes me scummy, but only if he flips town.

Why, it's like your prepping yourself for a nice Day 3 argument against me.

I'm not swimming in strong leads, but Dariush has caught my eye for regurgitating the suspect lists of everybody else in the game, and also lurking like a motherfucker, just like he said he would.

And you, because you're not voting anyone, ever. You're not taking stake in how the day game plays out, so let's think about what that says about you for a second, and what alternatives there are for you if you're really as disinterested in lynching as you look.

I didn't say it made you look scummy - go ahead and check. It's interesting that you react that way, though. What I was saying was that you've spent all of D2 and the vast majority of D1 on attacking Max, and if he flips town then who are you going to have? What suspicions will you push?

In fact, I would go so far as you say you're tunneling Max pretty heavily. I think it only counts as scumhunting if you're looking at everyone; attacking one person over and over again isn't real hunting.

Yes, I'm aware of how I look to you. Got a problem with it? Throw your vote at me. I, on the other hand, hold on to mine until I find a place to put it and a reason as to why.

Jokerman: Upon rereading, something reeeeeal interesting caught my eye. In the two quotes above, you claim your issue with Jim was that he was focusing exclusively on Max, not that it was necessarily scummy to do so*... except, you explicitly mention "if he flips town" both times. If your point was what you claimed it was, wouldn't that be equally applicable no matter what Max flipped?

*You reversed this position later, of course, but at the time that was your story.

Since I'm doing something else Sunday, this is it, I'm afraid.

And... it didn't occur to you to extend? You weren't really planning on just walking out on LYLO, right?

[Vector]

a. I had no idea if Dariush was scum or a terrible townie, and in either case I wasn't really worried about him.  As scum, he doesn't seem particularly dangerous.

b. When I say "townie enough," I mean "strong town."  Weak town means I still feel worried and paranoid.  If I don't think the read is strong, I don't like letting go of it.

c. Yeah.  I had an exam that day and was gone when he posted it (and when the entire mess went down).  I was completely exhausted, pointed out the thing that I felt I absolutely had to comment on, and then had mostly forgotten about it (and everything else I'd read) by the time I got to bothering Dariush.

I have no idea how I forgot he rolefished.  Memory is weird like that sometimes.  As my post shows, I literally remembered it halfway through typing.  I suspect that the strong memory of trying to figure out what White's game was, and all the associated questions, won out over the second of anger and annoyance I usually feel when someone does something preposterously scummy.

d. From my perspective, yes, this is pretty simple and it's odd that you wouldn't see it as such.

e. You asked me what his flip says about my changing opinion.

From my perspective, it means simply that I was right, and then that I was wrong.

From the general perspective, I have no idea what the implications would be.  I feel like it's a silly question.  "Now, tell us how we should feel about you."  I think you should do your own damn reads, like any good townie would.  If you don't know how to feel, you should look into things until you figure it out.

And, given that information, your question seems absurd and leading.

[Toaster]

LNCP:

LNCP:  Why did you choose Jim and Irony to snoop?

I chose both targets because I've had some trouble reading them reliably in the past for various reasons, and because they were both lower down on my scumlist. That made them good targets for a snooping, since I'd be less likely to spot something otherwise.

I don't follow.  How does snooping someone less scummy to you make for a good target selection?


Vector:  Do you still have issues with Irony, Joker, and Dariush?  You mentioned them along with Think on D2.  Fair enough on target selection.


Irony:  Why didn't you question Jim if he felt off to you?

[Vector]

I'm going to have to go back through my notes for that one, so that I can see the new overlay of information on top of the old.  I know there are questions I want to ask of everyone, even if Dariush is a bad lynch choice for the nonce.

For now, consider the answer a tentative yes.

Oh, and Extend.

[Toaster]

Fine, but you've said that many times this game.


Extend is good though.

[IronyOwl]

a. I had no idea if Dariush was scum or a terrible townie, and in either case I wasn't really worried about him.  As scum, he doesn't seem particularly dangerous.

What would make his potential night actions less dangerous, though?

b. When I say "townie enough," I mean "strong town."  Weak town means I still feel worried and paranoid.  If I don't think the read is strong, I don't like letting go of it.

That's... unusual terminology. Are you saying "strong town" actually means "relative lack of scumtells," or something else? Do you think that's the definition other people use and understand?

d. From my perspective, yes, this is pretty simple and it's odd that you wouldn't see it as such.

What about from my perspective? Was a lack of meta data, memory blanks, and your definitions for "townie enough" and "strong town" something I should have guessed or known immediately?

Irony:  Why didn't you question Jim if he felt off to you?

At the time, I wasn't sure how to. In retrospect that's not really right, but I guess I wasn't totally with it at the time. The only tangible thing Jim was really doing strangely was being direct, focused, and blunt, but not really in a scummy way- it was all stuff that was understandable as town. So, if I asked him about it, he'd probably just give the same direct, blunt answers as usual- there wasn't any way I could imagine him screwing up. That was actually one of the reasons he seemed off to me- it was almost like he was intentionally being townlike but unassailably simple.

[Vector]

a. I know that Org is an exception, as a player with a rubbish day game but an excellent night game, but I generally expect awful players to be pretty bad with their powers as well.  I mean, sure, a scumteam could have sent him out with the kill in the case of PWV, but I try not to block people who don't worry me--and as someone whose read was "muddy" more than "scum," I wasn't going to go after him with the RB.

b. Strong town means that I feel rather strongly that they are town, and that their particular profile of scumtells points to "town" rather than "scum" or "third party."  Everyone has scumtells.  The real question is which ones, and why.

I don't know that this is necessarily a definition everyone else uses and understands, but I thought it was pretty straightforward in terms of invented terminology.

c. I thought it was fairly clear, yes, that I tested, I advised, I was pinged, I forgot, and I went in for the takedown.  I believe my previous posts fill out the necessary details to make the situation entirely comprehensible, and I thought that the theory of memory I supplied was fairly well-known.

Of course, any mental slip is questioned in mafia, but the fact remains that the story I am supplying, have supplied, and is true was a rather simple one, explained at every step of the way to the best of my ability.

[Dariush]

I love you too, Vector. 

Kinda strange hearing about me being an awful player after you admit you've never played with me before...

[Vector]

Kinda strange hearing about me being an awful player after you admit you've never played with me before...

Do I have to have played with you before to know that you're pretty dreadful?

Not really, no.

[Mephansteras]

The Whiteboard
IronyOwl: Dariush, Toaster
Jokerman-EXE: Think0028
Vector: IronyOwl


Day has been Extended to ~5pm Pacific Tuesday

[Toaster]

Glad we're putting that extension to use.

Irony:

Irony:  Why didn't you question Jim if he felt off to you?

At the time, I wasn't sure how to. In retrospect that's not really right, but I guess I wasn't totally with it at the time. The only tangible thing Jim was really doing strangely was being direct, focused, and blunt, but not really in a scummy way- it was all stuff that was understandable as town. So, if I asked him about it, he'd probably just give the same direct, blunt answers as usual- there wasn't any way I could imagine him screwing up. That was actually one of the reasons he seemed off to me- it was almost like he was intentionally being townlike but unassailably simple.

So... he was being his normal self, doing things that a townie does?  That's not an attack.

[IronyOwl]

b. Strong town means that I feel rather strongly that they are town, and that their particular profile of scumtells points to "town" rather than "scum" or "third party."  Everyone has scumtells.  The real question is which ones, and why.

I don't know that this is necessarily a definition everyone else uses and understands, but I thought it was pretty straightforward in terms of invented terminology.

Then, what was it about Max's rolefishing, after everything else he had done, that turned him from "strong town" to "scum?"

I love you too, Vector. 

Kinda strange hearing about me being an awful player after you admit you've never played with me before...

How's that reread coming?

I'm going to laugh so hard if Max flips Spore Spreader...

While I'm at it, what was the purpose of this statement? Did you really think he might be a spore spreader at that point?

Also, why did you take such pains to respond to hypothetical role questions as though you were that role? I assume it was to avoid slipups, but why?

So... he was being his normal self, doing things that a townie does?  That's not an attack.

Hence why I didn't make it. I'll add that he didn't seem exactly like he always does, nor was he playing like any townie would, but nothing I could think of much traction for.

On to you, though. How's scumhunting me going? Have any other suspects? Also:

Dariush, how would you play as a war vet?

I'll openly state I am one and lurk lurk lurk.

War Vet's a convenient fakeclaim for dirty rotten scum.

How is that relevant to him answering that question?

How'd you not assume the obvious from this?

[Toaster]

Irony:  I'm really waiting on LNCP to answer my last question to him.  More than anyone else, I want his reasoning on his night choices.

-snip quote pyramid-

How'd you not assume the obvious from this?

I don't think I see the obviousness you do.  You asked Dariush how he'd play as War Vet.  He answered.  Jim's comment seemed apropos of nothing, so I asked him about it.

[Vector]

IronyOwl, there's a few tells I generally think will take any player with reasonable experience from a town read to a scum read.  They're ranked, of course, but the minute someone starts looking like they're about to die and says "okay, guys, give me your roles" in response, they're slated for the chopping block.  It didn't help that after that, he started contradicting himself and creating the world's most wobbly reasoning, as I noted in my post.

I would've thought this was obvious.  Do you have anything to actually bring up, or are you going to continue this pretense of scumhunting?

Hence why I didn't make it. I'll add that he didn't seem exactly like he always does, nor was he playing like any townie would, but nothing I could think of much traction for.

Explain.  I don't see how his behavior appeared unlike that which might be expected from town.