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[Vector]

Ah, so that's what you mean!

For Jokerman in particular (... given the paucity of posts), the part where I went "huh, he is probably town" was from the fact that

a. When he came out, his analysis and attacks did seem solid.  Not just "here I am, firing questions across everyone's boats, hoping something hits so everyone can leave me alone."  It felt... good.  Uh.  Townlike, in a generic sense, not a Jokerman-sense.  It was a post I would've expected from a townie paying attention.  Many scum players, when they do show up, will tend towards a lighter post, with either too much spread or too little.  This seemed just about right.

b. His snarliness when he came out also made me think he was town.  I know, I know--there lies WIFOM--but I think that most scum try to slip by a bit more than that.

On the other hand, it could've just been one of those visceral emotions people have due to things unrelated to the game, so I'm considering that one only lightly.  I.e., given that he seems to as of recently be gainfully employed, I imagine he would be more angry about people telling him what to do than the average person on these boards.

Meh.  Muddied waters.


Disclaimer: I'm going to go back over the game when I've slept more than four hours and look at interactions more than the simple word choice I tend to catch easily.  I'll make sure that I get some firmer sorts of information on these folks in particular, thanks much for the reminder.

[Max White]

Looks like mommy and daddy are getting along.

[Jim Groovester]

Stuff

Hmm.

Fair enough on those points then.

[IronyOwl]

*Goes to think's lurker tracker*
*Picks random own post*

stuff

Yes, I dare say I was pushing Toony on my own accord. If you want more evidence of this, try reading the thread. Your argument that this is a bandwagon is bullshit.

I involved myself, I pushed somebody, I got a scummy reply from both Toony and Pandar, and I followed through. Regardless of Jim's support.

That's not the point. The point is that you weren't pushing Toony because you thought he was scum, you were pushing him because he was scummier than Jim.

You do. That's the only issue you seem to have "taken a side" in, and since your justification for it was some garbage about it being that or doing nothing, I can only assume that's the only thing you've done all game.

Not all circumstances are mutually exclusive.

Great, more obtuse garbage. At least you're attacking someone unbidden.

So, you admit that you voted me by mistake aaaand... don't change your vote. Duly noted.

Part of it was a mistake, yeah.

Toony was digging a pit for himself and finally fell into it. My questioning wouldn't have changed anything. Max already dug half a pit and is now desperately trying to get out of it. The bad thing about lurkers is that they don't say anything substantial which makes it impossible to base any case on them except 'they're lurking'. What are your other suspects?

So you were passive about the Toony lynch, are being passive about the Max lynch, and intend to continue being passive about lurkers, despite thinking they're a serious problem. That's interesting.

I admittedly don't have much in the way of suspects, but I'm actually doing something about my list. You rattled off all the lurkers you could see, claimed you'd do something when everyone else did something, and reacted when attacked. That's not good scumhunting.

[lordnincompoop]

Go die in a fire, lying scum.

You're so adorable, I want to hug you.

I love you too.

I'm fine with you taking jabs at me, but I'd hardly call an RV a bandwagon vote.

I'm not talking about that RV, I'm talking about you copying everyone else's reasons that Max ought to hang because he doesn't defend himself.

Oh? Where did I say that he ought to hang, eh? Or, for that matter, that he doesn't defend himself? Where have I copied any reasons?

Protip: Don't fabricate evidence. It makes you look bad.

I'll call bullshit on this too. Show me the post.

Okay. Do you have anything original, or for that matter, substantial?

, which is pretty much a rephrasing of Toaster's accusation.

Well, it's true, isn't it?

Buddying is a nulltell because it relies either on associative tells (bullshit and stupid before one of them flips scum, and is stupid thereafter too because any scum worth his salt will try to pretend he never had a partner in the first place) or is plain stupid because it involves the scum consciously doing something that is risky, of limited use, and is obvious.

Lurking is a nulltell - especially on its own - because it either relies very heavily on meta, or is incredibly weak outside of D1 and without other tells to back it up. Neither condition has been fulfilled.

Both of your accusations are very run-of-the-mill, would take no effort to create, and are either very weak or nulltells (in other words, neither original nor substantial).

I'd also like to point out that you've done nothing to pursue any of your suspects, you've supplied no valid reasoning for any, and that your "buddying" accusation seems to be right off of Jim Groovester's case - with no prior signs of said suspicion while the debate raged on before you and with nothing else other than the mention.

[[citation_needed]]

I tell you something doesn't exist and you tell me to cite it? Lol what?

Call me stubborn, but I'd rather somebody say more than just "you don't scumhunt".

I was absent for most of that day, and I'm not about to give up what precious little remains of my life for you.

You're so adorable, I want to hug you.

Next time you try to shit on someone, make it more substantial.

You're so adorable, I want to hug you.

So, what's with the copypasta? Too afraid to slip up further?

Oh, wait - you're already doing it.

Hah. I love these two questions: You're trying to get me to support your case on him and sentence him (and others) at the same time. You'll then likely use my words against myself, no?

You're paranoidal, aren't you?

"Paranoidal" isn't a word, foo, and half the game consists of paranoia.

You're also being a bad sport, so stop that.

I'll humour you, though. IronyOwl came in a bit late, but now that he's started hunting, he's not a high-priority target for me. Lurkers should be prodded or told off; you can't do much else.

So, you plan to ignore both anybody who's scumhunting (in your weird definition of the word) and all lurkers and instead bandwagon on weak players. Duly noted.

Twist my words all you like, but your case isn't going to get any better.

I've got better places to put my vote than on people who haven't slipped up and are scumhunting well. Since lurking is very much a nulltell and he hasn't thrown any scumtells, of course he'd be low on my list.

I don't vote for the popular lynch without a damn good reason (AKA bandwagonning), perhaps even more so than other lynches.

And where did this bandwagon come up? Unless you're talking about yourself here (in which case, there was no wagon in the first place), I've done nothing of the sort.

[Think0028]

Max: You continue to misrepresent Pandarsenic's posts against you, despite the fact that you should know better at this point. Pandar was attacking your reasoning, not running to Toony's defense, and him calling you out to vote him was him trying to:
1) Aggravate you.
2) Show that you weren't willing to act on your scumpicks.

Not to mention that for complaining about 'putting words in [your] mouth' you're doing your best to frame Toaster in the worst light possible. Do you have any solid basis for your attacks on Toaster's motives?

Jokerman: Pooooooost.

[Toaster]

Max:  What the hell are you talking about?

Hey there Toaster
Did you get around to doing anything d1? Realy? I saw you asking RVS questions long after everybody else had moved on. You tried to push me a little, without even voting, and you moved onto Dariush because he was making a RVS vote, but apart from that not much. Trying to avoid real attention?

I think our definition of "RVS questions" is not the same.  Anyway, I never voted you because I never strongly suspected you.  Why should I have?  I would have voted Dariush at the time I FoSed him if I wasn't still waiting on Vector's response to my initial RV.

You can give me all the attention you want.  What makes my "not much" worse than, say, Jokerman or Irony?

Today has been a little better. You managed to put words into my mouth and blatantly lie.

You may not have said he was town directly, but you damn sure meant it.

Also, you deflecting attention toward Pandar there is also completely irrelevant.

I know what I mean, if you misinterpret not my fault, and what do you mean I was deflecting towards Panda? He started chainsawing me to protect he's guard. He demanded I vote for him. He drew attention to himself. I just defended my case.

So let's make it clear: what is your current read on Jim?

And Pandar didn't chainsaw anyone.  He flipped town- he motives were obviously townie.

Although you seem to think that your ignorance is my fault.

Again, I had misunderstood you.  However, that just adds fuel to the fire that you indeed had him as town, making you saying you hadn't even more bullshittier.

And then not much more, lurky lurk. Just found a nice target to sit your vote on where nobody would question you about it, and should things start to go badly for you, you can just swing your vote over to me, but as you know I am townie you would prefer to associate with me as little as possible, just push some lazy points so that people won't think a last minute vote on me is a bandwagon.

Again, why do you think I intend to vote you?  For one who just accused me of putting words in your mouth, you have zero problem doing it to me.  I'm trying to decide if you're clueless town or scum, and frankly, I'm not sure what to ask you because I'm bad at telling the difference.  Stop being a hypocrite if you want to be taken seriously.

Where's this blatant lie you mentioned?  I don't see you posting it other than to call me a liar.

Jokerman is not participating at all.  I've been scum with him, and this like his scum game.  On that note...


Vector:

Jokerman, at least, is playing the same damned way he plays every game, except he's taking chances that I don't think he'd take as scum--getting royally pissed when folks order him to come play, etc.  He feels completely different than the times I've hunted him and he flipped scum.  Uh... more blue than gray, if that means anything to you.

I think you should go check BYOR 5.5 if you want a Jokerman meta counter-argument.  Yes, he's far more participatory in that game, but he's also taking plenty of risks.


Dariush: I was actually suspecting you less, but why are you blowing off LNCP's questions like that?   Do you think he is scummy or is he just annoying you?


Think:  Who is your #2 pick right now?

[Think0028]

Toaster: I'd say Jokerman. I don't like how he's cultivating an aloof and insightful image. It feels like he's just trying to justify not having to participate in lynches to keep a clean record. There's quite a bit of talk about what his meta means in this context, so I'm doing some outside research about that. For now, though, he's my #2.

[Mephansteras]

The Whiteboard
Dariush: IronyOwl, Vector
Jokerman-EXE: Toaster
Max White: Jim Groovester, Think0028
Toaster: Max White


Day ends ~10am Pacific Monday

[Dariush]

Dariush, in which way does levying an ad hominem attack help build your cause against someone else's question?

He invented some bullshit about me trying to get his support, which fact I felt compelled to point out. If you don't like it being ad hominem, you may read that as 'Stop putting words in my mouth, you scum'. The meaning would remain the same.

So you were passive about the Toony lynch, are being passive about the Max lynch, and intend to continue being passive about lurkers, despite thinking they're a serious problem. That's interesting.

...pretty strange hearing about passivity from someone who lurked D1 away. And I just explained my stance on lurkers - until they get in here and say something, it's impossible to tell about them anything except 'they're lurking'. When they do, the position against them may be a bit... biased.

I admittedly don't have much in the way of suspects, but I'm actually doing something about my list.

Yeah. You're ignoring it.

Oh? Where did I say that he ought to hang, eh? Or, for that matter, that he doesn't defend himself? Where have I copied any reasons?
Protip: Don't fabricate evidence. It makes you look bad.

Fine, you didn't want to lynch Max. Then what was the purpose of the following post?

Well, I'm most likely going to be lynched, I have seen how these things go.

What makes you think that? Two votes are hardly enough to fret over.

A simple support of a newbie?

Buddying is a nulltell because it relies either on associative tells (bullshit and stupid before one of them flips scum, and is stupid thereafter too because any scum worth his salt will try to pretend he never had a partner in the first place) or is plain stupid because it involves the scum consciously doing something that is risky, of limited use, and is obvious.

Lurking is a nulltell - especially on its own - because it either relies very heavily on meta, or is incredibly weak outside of D1 and without other tells to back it up. Neither condition has been fulfilled.

It's easy to call anything a nulltell, thinking this way...

I'd also like to point out that you've done nothing to pursue any of your suspects, you've supplied no valid reasoning for any, and that your "buddying" accusation seems to be right off of Jim Groovester's case - with no prior signs of said suspicion while the debate raged on before you and with nothing else other than the mention.

I'm waiting until Jokerman finally gets in and says something and Irony makes up his mind about whether or not there was a mistake in his accusation and what is he going to do with his vote because of it. Meanwhile I adopted Vector's tactic of going after the least pressured player, which is... *drumroll* ...you.

So, what's with the copypasta? Too afraid to slip up further?

Oh, wait - you're already doing it.

I'm not about to give up what precious little remains of my life for bolstering your ego.

I've got better places to put my vote than on people who haven't slipped up and are scumhunting well. Since lurking is very much a nulltell and he hasn't thrown any scumtells, of course he'd be low on my list.

...which is eeeeexactly what I said. The point isn't that you're not voting them, it's that you're totally ignoring them.

Dariush: I was actually suspecting you less, but why are you blowing off LNCP's questions like that?   Do you think he is scummy or is he just annoying you?

What do you mean, 'blowing off questions'? I'm pretty sure I'm answering them. And yes, I thought he was scummy for reasons I outlined when I first addressed him.

[Jokerman-EXE]

FUCK FUCK RFGDFSNH;ES ABN[OESSSSD;JFLSKWLEBG[RCVXX

I wrote this huge fucking thing and my roommate unplugged my laptop on accident FUCK. It will be back up when I get off work. Sorry.

[Jim Groovester]

Jokerman-EXE, Dariush, lordnincompoop, why aren't you voting?

[Dariush]

I'm waiting to see Jokerman's ubermegapost. Meanwhile Jokerman because I'm not yet fully assured of LNCP's aligment.

[Jim Groovester]

As I recall you haven't said very much about Jokerman-EXE at all. What makes you suspicious about him?

[lordnincompoop]

Fine, you didn't want to lynch Max. Then what was the purpose of the following post?

<snip>

A simple support of a newbie?

A simple question. Have you something against simple questions?

It's easy to call anything a nulltell, thinking this way...

I disagree, but don't let someone like me break your illusions.

I'd also like to point out that you've done nothing to pursue any of your suspects, you've supplied no valid reasoning for any, and that your "buddying" accusation seems to be right off of Jim Groovester's case - with no prior signs of said suspicion while the debate raged on before you and with nothing else other than the mention.

I'm waiting until Jokerman finally gets in and says something and Irony makes up his mind about whether or not there was a mistake in his accusation and what is he going to do with his vote because of it. Meanwhile I adopted Vector's tactic of going after the least pressured player, which is... *drumroll* ...you.

And by golly, what a mess you made out of that, eh?

So, what's with the copypasta? Too afraid to slip up further?

Oh, wait - you're already doing it.

I'm not about to give up what precious little remains of my life for bolstering your ego.

Funny, since you seem to be doing it anyway.

I've got better places to put my vote than on people who haven't slipped up and are scumhunting well. Since lurking is very much a nulltell and he hasn't thrown any scumtells, of course he'd be low on my list.

...which is eeeeexactly what I said. The point isn't that you're not voting them, it's that you're totally ignoring them.

Well, in your words: "I don't have enough material to work with". Granted, you could say I'm not asking enough questions, but I'm getting to the activity levels I want, either.

Dariush: I was actually suspecting you less, but why are you blowing off LNCP's questions like that?   Do you think he is scummy or is he just annoying you?

What do you mean, 'blowing off questions'? I'm pretty sure I'm answering them. And yes, I thought he was scummy for reasons I outlined when I first addressed him.

Since your little damaged head doesn't seem to be getting the input, let me phrase it differently: What exactly did you intend with those questions?


Actually, I just went through your posts. You have Jokerman down for "lurking which is like him", and you have no interactions with him beyond that. In a later post, you also replied that there is nothing out of the ordinary with on-meta lurking. If you don't think in-meta lurking is noteworthy, then why do you seem to think it's a scumtell?

Additionally, your first pick was Irrony (who you FOSed, too), and since your suspicions of him don't seem to have changed much, why are you voting Jokerman - especially since you've done nothing to pursue this pick? Are you just looking for an easy lynch?

IronyOwl: Can you summarise to us your points against Dariush and reasoning for same?