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[lordnincompoop]

LNCP, you seem pretty relaxed down there.

Yeah, I'm pretty relaxed.

Let's see - bandwagoning onto Max - check.

Go die in a fire, lying scum.

I'm fine with you taking jabs at me, but I'd hardly call an RV a bandwagon vote.

Parroting other people's mentions of my inactivity - check.

I'll call bullshit on this too. Show me the post.

Scumhunting - ... ... sorry, can't find it.

[[citation_needed]]

The closest you came there is by carefully detailing why Toony ought to hang. After he was halfway in the noose.

I was absent for most of that day, and I'm not about to give up what precious little remains of my life for you.

Next time you try to shit on someone, make it more substantial.

What is your read on IronyOwl? What do you think should be done with lurkers in general?

Hah. I love these two questions: You're trying to get me to support your case on him and sentence him (and others) at the same time. You'll then likely use my words against myself, no?

Nice try, dear, but you were a bit too transparent.

I'll humour you, though. IronyOwl came in a bit late, but now that he's started hunting, he's not a high-priority target for me. Lurkers should be prodded or told off; you can't do much else.

[Dariush]

Go die in a fire, lying scum.

You're so adorable, I want to hug you.

I'm fine with you taking jabs at me, but I'd hardly call an RV a bandwagon vote.

I'm not talking about that RV, I'm talking about you copying everyone else's reasons that Max ought to hang because he doesn't defend himself.

I'll call bullshit on this too. Show me the post.

Okay. Do you have anything original, or for that matter, substantial?

, which is pretty much a rephrasing of Toaster's accusation.

Scumhunting - ... ... sorry, can't find it.

[[citation_needed]]

I tell you something doesn't exist and you tell me to cite it? Lol what?

I was absent for most of that day, and I'm not about to give up what precious little remains of my life for you.

You're so adorable, I want to hug you.

Next time you try to shit on someone, make it more substantial.

You're so adorable, I want to hug you.

What is your read on IronyOwl? What do you think should be done with lurkers in general?

Hah. I love these two questions: You're trying to get me to support your case on him and sentence him (and others) at the same time. You'll then likely use my words against myself, no?

You're paranoidal, aren't you?

I'll humour you, though. IronyOwl came in a bit late, but now that he's started hunting, he's not a high-priority target for me. Lurkers should be prodded or told off; you can't do much else.

So, you plan to ignore both anybody who's scumhunting (in your weird definition of the word) and all lurkers and instead bandwagon on weak players. Duly noted.

[Vector]

Dariush, in which way does levying an ad hominem attack help build your cause against someone else's question?

[Jim Groovester]

Extend to give people more time to vote Jokerman.

But I extended to give people more time to vote Max White!

What are we going to do about this?

Dariush, in which way does levying an ad hominem attack help build your cause against someone else's question?

I don't understand what your complaint is.

[Vector]

I'm talking about this:

What is your read on IronyOwl? What do you think should be done with lurkers in general?

Hah. I love these two questions: You're trying to get me to support your case on him and sentence him (and others) at the same time. You'll then likely use my words against myself, no?

You're paranoidal, aren't you?

Dariush asks an arguably scummy question.  LNCP points it out.  Dariush ripostes with: "You're paranoid."

I would like an explanation from Dariush that encompasses his actual intent and explains why "You're paranoid" is an acceptable response to such a question.

[Jim Groovester]

How is it arguably scummy?

Why does LNCP get away with not answering the question?

Why is "You're paranoidal" inappropriate?

[Vector]

I've caught scum once or twice looking for people who often asked questions like "What do you think of X person?"  It's a way to control and redirect town activity, pointing towards targets deemed appropriate by the scumteam, distracting them from others deemed more dangerous.  In general, I prefer not to ask those questions for that reason: looking for scum-teams is generally ill-advised unless you have one of them pinned, squirming, and spewing scumtells.  And then, they're going to be trying desperately to distance themselves, if they've got a grain of common sense.  I prefer to ask for lists of reads on all players present, in order to get the same effect with more data and with the negative effect cloaked a bit.

Asking about lurker policy of someone who isn't a lurker (i.e., almost any time outside of RVS) is usually a subtle a call for LaL or to pull away from the main argument, which is a great thing for a reasonably active scumteam.

I think the necessity of LNCP to answer such a question is debatable.  In general, answering a question is necessary.  However, I still consider the "what the hell is this?!" response reasonable, so long as it doesn't occur too frequently.

As far as the "you're paranoidal" being inappropriate, it's one of those side-dodges that I just don't expect anymore.  Someone challenges your right to ask a particular question, you explain your intentions or at least make some effort at expressing a Plan Being Afoot.

Eh... I guess the point here is that an entire chain of "your question is bad" is possible at any one point, and I can say "okay, one dodge," but two dodges is where it starts getting dicey.

[Jim Groovester]

I've caught scum once or twice looking for people who often asked questions like "What do you think of X person?"  It's a way to control and redirect town activity, pointing towards targets deemed appropriate by the scumteam, distracting them from others deemed more dangerous.  In general, I prefer not to ask those questions for that reason: looking for scum-teams is generally ill-advised unless you have one of them pinned, squirming, and spewing scumtells.  And then, they're going to be trying desperately to distance themselves, if they've got a grain of common sense.  I prefer to ask for lists of reads on all players present, in order to get the same effect with more data and with the negative effect cloaked a bit.

I disagree. Asking for reads on people is an incredibly standard thing to do. If Dariush is doing it to gain traction on IronyOwl, what's the problem with that? Pushing for a lynch isn't a scummy thing to do. Depends on his reasons, of course, but by itself it's no cause for alarm.

It seems like you're objecting to Dariush doing the things he's supposed to be doing as town.

While we're at it, what's your read on Jokerman-EXE and Max White? I can't recall you ever stating an opinion about them. That's got me curious.

[Vector]

*shrug*

My scumtells may not be your scumtells, but in any case it's a good piece of opening leverage to get back in the game and kick some Vector-usable data out of Dariush.

If you want an actual example of this in play by scum, you can probably take a look at me in BMIV, or Eduren in BMII.


My read on both of them is strong town.  They're both terrible players, but I'm at least somewhat sure of that--more so for Jokerman than for Max White, though.

I'll have a better read on Max White after the BM finishes, but for now I'm willing to stake on it.

[Jim Groovester]

My read on both of them is strong town.

Mr. Nevervoter and Mr. Scumhuntrefuser?

Are you serious?

[Vector]

Yup.

Jokerman, at least, is playing the same damned way he plays every game, except he's taking chances that I don't think he'd take as scum--getting royally pissed when folks order him to come play, etc.  He feels completely different than the times I've hunted him and he flipped scum.  Uh... more blue than gray, if that means anything to you.

Max White I'm less sure of, since he may be a hyperactive, uncooperative asshat all the time, with no significant changes as scum.  But at the moment, he feels like town getting embroiled in tactics he doesn't understand to me.  He's the one I'm going to need to read back for, but my most recent read is that I think he's town that hasn't yet learned to stop making absurd mistakes.

May have a different opinion on the latter tomorrow morning, though, as I've slept terribly for the past week or so.

[Jim Groovester]

Only meta arguments, huh?

Anything from this game alone that makes you think they're town?

[Vector]

Only meta arguments, huh?

Anything from this game alone that makes you think they're town?

Uh... those are both arguments with an in-game component and a meta-component.

Much like I'd usually end up lynching Toony every game if I didn't take meta arguments into account, I'd also end up doing the same to Jokerman.  I am pretty bloody sure about my read on him.

Again, Max White I'm less certain of because I know nothing about his play.

...

Wait, fuck.  Never mind all the bullshit I've been saying about Max White.  I completely forgot about his rolefishing shit-on-a-stick.  I've been mostly thinking from early D1 data.

Uh =/

Let's put it this way: I did really badly on that German test, came home exhausted, skimmed the thread, went "bluh I am tired and this doesn't look right at all!" and then promptly forgot about everything I'd seen when it came time to posting.

Yeah, okay.  I'm not certain that Max White is scum because I really do need to do that reread I was talking about, and I won't be sure until I have a case built.  However, I am finding it harder and harder to keep on my rose-colored "Aww, what a cute widdle noobie!" glasses.

I guess I'm discovering more and more that my "I hate mislynches, so let's give folks leeway" idea is just going to cause more mislynches.  Was too far in one direction, compensated too much, need to swing back.

Anyway, I have to go to bed, but I'll work through this tomorrow.

[Max White]

What makes you think that? Two votes are hardly enough to fret over.

Two votes and two FoS, and with three scum out there and only two votes there are bound to be more on the way if it means a mislynch.

I'd imagine that most town power roles - especially investigative ones - would do well in fullclaiming and posting info on the hour of their death. It likely won't change things, but should the player flip town, that info would potentially be useful.

See now that wasn't very hard was it? That was the kind of answer is I was both hoping for and expecting, but for some reasons rather than answering a, a few people chose to try and make this into an argument. I wonder why... Still, mixed answers makes for a clear choice, and I'm not exactly done for yet.

Max:  The preview post button is your friend.

Noted.

Hey there Toaster
Did you get around to doing anything d1? Realy? I saw you asking RVS questions long after everybody else had moved on. You tried to push me a little, without even voting, and you moved onto Dariush because he was making a RVS vote, but apart from that not much. Trying to avoid real attention?

Today has been a little better. You managed to put words into my mouth and blatantly lie.

You may not have said he was town directly, but you damn sure meant it.

Also, you deflecting attention toward Pandar there is also completely irrelevant.

I know what I mean, if you misinterpret not my fault, and what do you mean I was deflecting towards Panda? He started chainsawing me to protect he's guard. He demanded I vote for him. He drew attention to himself. I just defended my case.

Although you seem to think that your ignorance is my fault.

Again, I had misunderstood you.  However, that just adds fuel to the fire that you indeed had him as town, making you saying you hadn't even more bullshittier.

And then not much more, lurky lurk. Just found a nice target to sit your vote on where nobody would question you about it, and should things start to go badly for you, you can just swing your vote over to me, but as you know I am townie you would prefer to associate with me as little as possible, just push some lazy points so that people won't think a last minute vote on me is a bandwagon.

[Jim Groovester]

Only meta arguments, huh?

Anything from this game alone that makes you think they're town?

Uh... those are both arguments with an in-game component and a meta-component.

I know.

But I was asking if there was anything that made you think, "He is town because he did this," and not, "He is town because it is usual for him to do this."

I didn't want a read that was based solely on comparison to other games.