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[Deadmeat1471]

Lets play it.

MiniGame.

Turn 1

Imperials (Warhammer)
4 lands
no special unit
0 Units

Rebels (Taricus)
4 lands
no special unit
0 units

Spearclan (Inteuniso)
1 land
spearmen(2xdmg against cavalry)
0 units

Cavalryclan
1 land
cavalry(2xdmg against archers)
0 units

Archerclan
1 land
archers(2xdmg against spearmen)
0 units

Moneylenderclan (Criptfeind)
Operating in[
]
0 land
0 gold in vaults
[Depositors
-]
0 paper money

Special money lender rules

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Starting gold income is made from investment from factions. Investment allows the faction to request a loan from the bank at a later date, of such an amount to be discussed with the lenders. This investment is a deposit of gold(money/income) to the bank allowing them to print paper money and create credit. Investment money is a deposit of gold into the vault. This money can be withdrawn in gold at any time after the turn of deposit/investment. You cannot however turn borrowed paper money into gold; only factions receiving paper money as payment can cash this in, or ones who deposited gold to the vault. Investment can be given with strings attached, such as you must lend credit to me within 2 turns of twice my investment. The moneylenders may or may not refuse.
You will from this have access to borrow from them, if they decide you will be able to pay it back.
Repayments are made in whatever sum both parties agree.(Example, lenders lend 5 gold in return for 7 in 2 turns) If you default on your loans and do not pay them back, they will no doubt vacate your land and withdraw access to their coffers.

Paper money
Income for factions is usually gold coin, however moneylenders can print paper money and loan it for a profit(interest). Paper money is essentially an IOU for the same amount of gold in the vault, however you can use this in itself as cash.
The moneylender may create as much of this as they wish at the rate of up to 4 per turn(The printing time). However , if a person wishes to withdraw their money in gold from a received paper note or deposit(maybe they don't trust the banks ability to pay up?), and such funds are not in the vault, the bank will collapse unless the depositor will write off that gold and loose it, or the bank gets investment from another faction to stay afloat.
Paper money is not stored at the money lenders building, it is only loaned out as usable money.

Repayments made to the money lenders can be either in paper money or gold, It is recommended however the bank usually requests gold to increase its strength/safety from collapse. this is open to negotiation by both parties.
A deposit/investment and a withdrawl/loan cannot be made to/by the same person in the same turn.

Key elements
-If you have more paper money in your possession than you have borrowed, you may withdraw that number in gold. (IE, have borrowed 1 paper money, have obtained 2 more. 2 gold could be withdrawn from the vault, if the faction wishes)
-Invested gold is lent to the bank, you still can withdraw this as gold at any time, although this will prevent you requesting further paper money from the bank.
-While withdrawing gold may seem reasonable, the paper money is perfectly useful as it is, infact withdrawing the gold may put any paper money in your possession at risk by weakening he moneylenders.

The benefits
All of this means essentially that the moneylenders can create extra money free, and as long as people trust the money lenders and do not all withdraw their gold from the vault at once.

The risks
To stay afloat, the moneylenders must ensure the people they lend their money to will pay it back on time, and for a profit.
If the bank collapses, all paper money becomes worthless and the moneylenders start from the beginning again. This makes them a formidable economic force, a source of money and a liability at the same time.

Regulation
All factions can pass regulation on the money lenders with a majority(51% or more) vote. Regulation could be such as, the moneylenders must maintain gold equivilent to a 1:1 ratio of paper money they lend out(I.E. 5 gold for 5 paper money lended), and print no more above that ratio.

Yes, you can behead them and/or raid their coffers. No they will not re spawn. You cannot kill/raid them if they do not operate in your lands.
The money lenders cannot buy units, however they are able to intrigue with factions.....[/i]

Naming
You can name your paper currency anything you wish.

World Statistics:

Inflationary price of using ?? paper money: 0%
Gold to paper money ratio: 1(rounded up to the nearest whole number)

==============================================================

-1 land = 1 income

-1 new unit costs 1 income

-Expanding land costs 3 income for every 1 land.
hiring a faction to fight for you? whatever they demand.

-Payment, gifts, bribes, loans between factions can be made in either gold or paper money form.

-Inflation. For every 1*(gold storage in bank vault/(ratio of paper money to gold in general circulation) paper money printed, inflation will rise the price of all goods(buying a unit) by 25%, but inflation will drop globally by 5% each turn. If the amount of gold to paper is so low it doesn't even increase, this is disregarded as normal inflation and results in no rise in the inflation amount.
To print more, they must have the blessing of a majority the places they are operating in.
Of course if you pay in gold the price is always the original.
This does not effect land expansion
Land expansion will always have to be paid for with gold.

-Moneylenders can buy another Money Printing Machine for 8 Gold, this will increase their capacity for increasing money by +4.

Example:

Moneylender A gets permission from the majority factions it operates in to print 4 paper money and has 4 gold in the vault. This increases the price of a unit from 1 to 1(25% rounded up is no noticeable inflation level). 8 would however raise the price of a unit from 1 to 2.
The math, 1*4(gold in the vault)/1(Paper money in circulation is equal to or less than the amount of gold in circulation)= 4,  4 paper money printed this turn will cause inflation increases of 25% due to the sheer number of new bills.

-Conquering a military faction (archer, spear or cavalry) will mean you gain their services for free, as well as their lands. However the player still exists, and can betray you or be bribed/incited against you. You may reward them or punish them or arm them as you see fit, with internal lands, soldiers or money for example.

-1 Unit = 1 dice, 5 or 6 kills. If neither side looses any units in a combat round, die are rerolled. The person with the smallest army after the combat retreats. If the defender retreats he looses 1 land, if the army is utterly destroyed up to 3 land(reducing the enemy to 1 land is the maximum in one attack). If a unit has a specialty against a troop, he rolls 2 die. Specialist armies will always target their easiest enemy first for damage.

-Warriorclans also have a 2 dice bonus against the civilised nations, this is negated if said warrior clan is enslaved by the civilised faction, or their target bonus faction.

-All negotiation and diplomacy can be done in public or private, your choice.

-You can rename your clans if you wish.

-You can start as a custom clan with 1 land and a random specialty if all are taken already. This is applicable once the game has started too.
-You can also start as a civilised clan(no speciality) and 2 land if all are taken already.
-The same applies for new moneylenders.

Anyone want to play?

[inteuniso]

I am the ruler of the Spearclan!

[Criptfeind]

I might be interested in playing. Although I have two questions.

1: What is the point of playing as xclan? They start much weaker then the other fractions, and they are only good against other xclans, which does not matter because see point 1. Basically, with the closed circle like you have there is no incentive at all for the bigger fractions to keep the clans around.

2: Are you sure that restricting the money printers to only four per turn is a good idea? Later in the game that seems like it would be a worthless amount. Maybe making it be something closer to based on how much gold they own would be a good idea? Although that comes up with another issue, what happens if they just keep printing? Without any restrictions such as inflation they could quickly make so much money that any other source would be useless. Perhaps a simple inflation scheme could be put in place, such as replace generic gold with country specific gold that increases and decrease in worth with comparison to how much money is on it and how much money rests on other countries gold, so that countries would be pushed to put restrictions on the moneylenders?

[Deadmeat1471]

I might be interested in playing. Although I have two questions.

1: What is the point of playing as xclan? They start much weaker then the other fractions, and they are only good against other xclans, which does not matter because see point 1. Basically, with the closed circle like you have there is no incentive at all for the bigger fractions to keep the clans around.

2: Are you sure that restricting the money printers to only four per turn is a good idea? Later in the game that seems like it would be a worthless amount. Maybe making it be something closer to based on how much gold they own would be a good idea? Although that comes up with another issue, what happens if they just keep printing? Without any restrictions such as inflation they could quickly make so much money that any other source would be useless. Perhaps a simple inflation scheme could be put in place, such as replace generic gold with country specific gold that increases and decrease in worth with comparison to how much money is on it and how much money rests on other countries gold, so that countries would be pushed to put restrictions on the moneylenders?

Good points.

1: The clans now have a bonus against their enemy (spears against cavalry) AND against the civilised factions. The bonus against said civilised faction is negated if the warrior clan has been conquered and is in the (free) service of that ruler.

2: Moneylenders have a item called a 'Money Printer'. They can buy this and increase the amount they can print at once - increasing their flexibility in boom times.
I've tried such an inflation scheme before, it results in unnecessarily complex fractional math to do with the golds worth. The 'inflation' aspect I hope will become evident when people begin to ask for more money for payment for services or loans as the amount of paper money in circulation increases the net amount of money in circulation

If they continue to print money, the investors will get more and more worried that they could not pay back all these loans, not wanting to loose their gold investment/deposits they thus would withdraw the money, causing the bank to collapse.
The money lenders must be very careful about how much they print.

*Added these to the rules, I hope this addresses the concerns!

[Criptfeind]

Eh. Sounds sketchy seeing as the inherent cap is that units will always cost the same, so services can never go above the point where they cost more then just buying a army and doing it yourself, and you will have a economy like post world war Germany without inflation.

Edit: How adverse are you to fractions anyway? I have a germ of a idea in mind, but if you don't really want to hear it I will let it drop.

[Deadmeat1471]

Eh. Sounds sketchy seeing as the inherent cap is that units will always cost the same, so services can never go above the point where they cost more then just buying a army and doing it yourself, and you will have a economy like post world war Germany without inflation.

Ok, I will have inflation on the units. Rounded to the nearest .5. If there is 50 money in circulation and 50 paper money, the cost of a unit will be 2 times the original(so 2 money)

Satisfied?

[Criptfeind]

Hah. Noo. Cause that makes money useless.

Anyway, ether way this sounds fun, can you sign me up for a moneylender fraction?

[Deadmeat1471]

Hah. Noo. Cause that makes money useless.

Anyway, ether way this sounds fun, can you sign me up for a moneylender fraction?

Correct, i will rethink inflation, and sure

[Deadmeat1471]

How about, for every 1 paper money printed, inflation will rise the price by 25%, but inflation will drop globally by 5% each turn? It's not entirely realistic, but it does seem fair. It will be rounded up to the nearest whole number, so fractional amounts will be considered too little to worry about.
To print more, they must have the blessing of a majority the places they are operating in.

And i will remove the 'money printer' as it is now redundant.

This is fine, any more complex and it makes the 'simple inflation system' idea defiled 

Have edited to rules to include these, barring any objections.

[Criptfeind]

Well, it would need to be proportional to the amount of gold in play/in the bank. Or you will not be able to print any money at all without crashing the economy.

Also it opens up the tactic (not that is in of itself a bad thing) of a fraction with a larger army but a lower income then another fraction from (if they can convince the bank) printing the world into a place where no one can buy any units, so the one with units stocked up wins.

[Deadmeat1471]

Well, it would need to be proportional to the amount of gold in play/in the bank. Or you will not be able to print any money at all without crashing the economy.

Also it opens up the tactic (not that is in of itself a bad thing) of a fraction with a larger army but a lower income then another fraction from (if they can convince the bank) printing the world into a place where no one can buy any units, so the one with units stocked up wins.

Well you could print money this way, you are essentially creating 175% money from a gold piece. Which slowely increases to 200% of a gold piece(and more as more is printed) - this seems a viable option to me?

*also the limit of 4 per turn is still in place. So they cant flood the market with 1000000000000% inflation in one turn 
As well as being reliant on a vote by the factions it operates in.

I only want to avoid fractions so people dont have to do math to play and I do it to host, the game is intended to be simple.

As for the tactic, I would imagine the person with the most units would be the one who secured the most credit in order to buy them 

**additional note, land income will be considered paid in gold unless I change this. This income will never change, as it is uneffected by inflation.

Based on this system, different lenders printing different paper monies would have different inflation levels. The downside to this is faith in a bank just beginning, and faith in an existing and established one would be very different. Of course this would incline new lenders to print the same currency as the established ones, rather than go on their own. But I think ill leave the option open.
Maybe people could agree IC to demand only one paper currency be used if they so desire hint hint 

Of course if the other lenders hate you for some reason, investing in a newly started lender may be of great benefit!

[Criptfeind]

Well you could print money this way, you are essentially creating 175% money from a gold piece. Which slowely increases to 200% of a gold piece(and more as more is printed) - this seems a viable option to me?

Not really, you would only be able to print one money per five turns. Otherwise inflation would overwhelm you. At least that is how I am reading it.

If I may, could I make a suggestion of my own?


Rules:
1: A bank can only print money for a fraction they both have a land resource in and have the permission to print money for.
2: A bank can only print a amount equal to the gold they have per turn.
3: Each fraction will have their own money. Gold is universal though.
4: When a fraction gives their money to another fraction, the money stays the same and does not change fractions.

5: When more money is printed for a country in one turn then the country makes in gold each turn, the exercise money with cause inflation for that currency equal to the % that it is more then the income. (Two examples:  Fraction makes 100/50 gold per turn, a bank prints 105/55 money for that fraction, which adds 5/10% inflation to that fractions money.)
6: Inflation goes down 5% per turn down to 100%, at which point it goes down at 1% per turn to a minim of 50% (It starts effectively at 100%, each money worth one gold)
7: If the bank prints less then 100% of the gold made by a fraction, then inflation goes down at a one % to one % ratio until it gets to 100%, at which point it goes down at a one to five ratio.

So, a working example of would be:

Say the world has three fractions and a money lender fraction that operates in each area. Each fraction makes 20 gold per turn.

Fraction one has the money lenders print out 30 dollar per turn, adding a total of 45% inflation to his money each turn. Effectively he can not save his money, and it very quickly turns worthless. But he does get a quick boost of cash.

Fraction two has the money lenders print out 21 dollars per turn. His inflation stays stable at 100%, he gains a bit of cash each turn, but nothing to write home about.

Fraction three has the money lenders print 10 dollars per turn. His inflation goes down 2% per turn, and in 25 turns it hits rock bottom at 50%. His money is a great standard and worth quite a bit, but his economy is slower and harder to grow.


Also, with these things, printing presses would still be worthwhile idea, as a way to curtail the growth of banks. Of course, rules 5,6, and 7 can all be adjusted up or down to increase or decrease the power of banks or change strategies (as how it is, trying to lower your inflation below 100 is really not a good idea, that is one thing I was not sure about in making it.) as you see fit.


So, what do you think?
Like it? Want to put it in? Cool.
Like it? Don't want to bother with the hassle? I will keep track of it if you want.
-Think me keeping track is a good idea and we should put it in? Cool.
-Think me keeping track is a bad idea we should not put it in? Cool.
Don't like it? Don't want to put it in? Cool.


Okay, that turned out a lot more complicated then I thought it would be, but I still like it and am willing to keep track of it. It is of course up to you.

[Deadmeat1471]

I like some of the ideas, but I think alot of them are focused on a purely paper based economy, as in every faction will print money every turn for the whole game, which this is not!
I intend paper money to be not necessarily an inflation based problem, but more an extremely early rendition of banks in which they are just coming about.
Your way is definitely more realistic, but its more realistic of a modern bank rather than a medieval money lending system. I will think on it tomorrow, and see what I can do

Also, alot more complex 

*If I dont use the ideas for this game, i definitely will for a future one based on a 19th/20th century society!

[Criptfeind]

Mess around with rule 5. Decrease it from something like 100 to 20 or even 5 and you have your gold based economy.

A modern economy, as close as this can resemble, works on about 900 to 1000 in rule five(and subsequent reductions elsewhere), but I can understand why you don't want a 1:1 ratio.

[Deadmeat1471]

Mess around with rule 5. Decrease it from something like 100 to 20 or even 5 and you have your gold based economy.

A modern economy, as close as this can resemble, works on about 900 to 1000 in rule five, but I can understand why you don't want a 1:1 ratio.

Sure, I will take a long look at this tomorrow.