Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: [1] 2 3 4

Author Topic: Learning brain surgery by shooting douchebags in the neck  (Read 6878 times)

piecewise

  • Bay Watcher
  • [TORTURE_FOR_FUN]
    • View Profile
    • Stuff
Learning brain surgery by shooting douchebags in the neck
« on: June 21, 2011, 04:21:09 pm »

Learning brain surgery by shooting douchebags in the neck: The oddities of Roleplaying

I was playing Fallout: New Vegas not long ago and was in the process of finding a new brain for a robot dog when something dawned on me. I was talking to a scientist about something or other when a speech option that relied on my science skill popped up. Before choosing it I decided to read what my character would be saying and realized I had no fucking idea what the hell he was talking about. Something about made up neural links and mind melding, subjects of study that a life of beating people with nail boards and injecting psycho into my eyes clearly prepared me for. I also noticed the distinct lack of an option to embed a fire ax in the scientist's forehead, an action which I felt would have been much more in line with the mentality of my character.

It's this moment and others that make me realize just how strange some of the abstractions of role playing have become. You see, I gained that high science skill not by studying the dusty ruins of museums or raiding the libraries of forgotten universities, but by shooting douche bags in the neck. In a literal sense I gained xp by killing enemies and chose to spend it by leveling up my science skill, which seems fine on the surface but look at it in the context of the game. In the game I'm a hulking, ultra-violent brute that drew not just scientific aptitude but actual knowledge and data from the aether by means of a length of lead pipe and a homeless man's shins. Add to that the fact that I can level up my ability to use guns, and really anything else, through the same medium and you have a strange system in which what you get better at has no real correlation with what you do. And in a role playing game this almost certainly isn't a good thing.

Beyond the strangeness of level up mechanics are the more subtle but in someway more glaring oddities of skill checks. I understand them, of course; they're a hold over from the paper and pen days when there was no real lock to pick or computer to hack, just a few numbers and dice fighting to the death behind a Dungeon master's cardboard, dragon bedecked, privacy shield thing. But now-a-days there are locks and computers and all manner of clever little mini-games for me to fiddle with and skill checks are rapidly becoming obsolete. Again, using New Vegas as an example, why is it that I can't even try to open certain locks without a specific amount of skill in lock pick? Why is it that the game feels the need to slap my hands away when ever I so much as look at a hard lock? Wouldn't it make more sense to simply make the mini-game harder or easier depending on my lockpick level? What does it equate to in game? Does my character just stare, dumbfounded, at the lock and somehow know, without ever trying to pick it, that it's too difficult for him? Or how about speech options? Where I am given a specific option, meaning my character conceived of it, but am unable to use it effectively without a specific speech skill level. If my character conceives of the correct option, what exactly does he do if he doesn't have the right level, engrave it on hardened dog shit and smack  the guy in the face with it?

Now there is obviously some need for abstractions in role playing. Giving the player the ability to do everything based on their personal skill wouldn't make for much of a game, but there are things that can be done to limit the abstractions and give players a greater sense of accomplishment. After all, is it better to grind against raiders with a rifle in order to raise your lock pick or to simply try picking a lot of locks?


Level up stats based on action, not on pure xp.
It makes sense doesn't it? You get good at the things you do a lot rather then getting good at whatever you chose to get good at regardless of action. But wait, you cry, hours of hoping up and down in to raise acrobatics in Oblivion replaying in your mind, wouldn't that let people game the system? Perhaps, but let think about this. If I spend a few hours in Oblivion, fighting with summoned creatures in order to level up my sword skill, is that really that different from a prize fighter sparing before a big fight? Does practicing a skill in order to improve it really constitute “gaming the system”? And what of the alternative? Where I can spend a few hours trying to pick a lock in fallout and end up as a hand to hand master by some strange application of metaphysical “skill” units.

Where possible, keep things realistic.
I don't mean strictly realistic, as in remove magic and fantasy, but if it's possible to remove abstractions, it should be done with extreme prejudice. Lets take my robot dog example. As it is, my knowledge of robo-canine veterinary practices is summoned from the beyond by my science skill, rather then any sort of acquired knowledge. Now, wouldn't it make more sense to actually acquire that information some how? Imagine if all those useless books you find sitting around in houses and buildings could be read. It wouldn't have to be a full book or anything, maybe just a few sentences that summarizes what you read. Then, if the opportunity to use the information that your character learned by reading the book ever came up, it would give you the option where there normally wouldn't be one.  This alone would act to give books a purpose, expand the lore of the world (by what was written in them), and remove a needless abstraction.

This can be applied to skill checks as well. Where possible, don't say just declare “You can't do that”, just structure the game so that it's difficult or unwise to do so. Many RPG's already do this with areas by making the enemies that inhabit the area  too difficult to beat at first, rather then simply throwing up an invisible wall and saying “you must recovered X Bear flanks before proceeding”, so why not do the same with skills? Rather then saying “you can't hack this computer” and slapping my hands away, just adjust the difficulty of the mini-game depending on my character's skill level. Give me less chances to screw up or make the gameplay more    challenging. Rather then saying “you can't wield this weapon until your skill is X”, just make it more difficult to wield; you can make my aim more shaky, my swing slower or my punch less    powerful, but don't go all crazy grandma on me and refuse to let me even hold the thing. Simulating a character's incompetence is much more reasonable then outright denying me something.
     
These things won't remove the abstractions in RPG's completely, but they will at least limit them to the necessary and perhaps even help to create a deeper, more “real” feeling game world.

Max White

  • Bay Watcher
  • Still not hollowed!
    • View Profile
Re: Learning brain surgery by shooting douchebags in the neck
« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2011, 04:34:11 pm »

Well, piecewise, a well written article, on a subject that has had a lot of back and forth between both sides.
But in the end, it all comes down to one simple question. Is more realistic better? Honestly, I have more fun shooting douchebags than pressing X to examine to grind for science points. Although improving your ability to do something by kicking a guy in the groin is unrealistic, it is rewarding you for doing something you dearly want to do. Yes, perk based systems are silly, but that does not mean bad. There are other games that use more realistic systems, like you would like (Go check out Elona, just what you need) but they aren't just intrinsically better.

And as far as the 'You are level 7 and you need to be level 8 to open this door' style skill challenges, well that is just a design choice to keep you away from high level content until you are high level. It is also great to help balance the game, as somebody who wanted to play as a brute who is using a long sword and put all their skills into helping in close combat is going to destroy all before them, while somebody who wanted to play with stealth would have a few lock picking skills. So the thief has access to some content the brute does not, including some nice weapons to make up for their lack of skill in combat.

These are game design choices, and thought about very hard in dev, not to be realistic, but to make for a good game. Not saying these choices are the only choices to make a good game, but that is their justification.

Cpt.tazer

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Learning brain surgery by shooting douchebags in the neck
« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2011, 04:36:04 pm »

well ive gotta say, i completely agree with you on this, the fallout method is really silly and abstract from how things should really work, like you said if i punch a guy in the face a few times then i miraculously gain speech skill, rather than actually talk to people then it doesent make for a good rpg

edit: it doesent make a bad game, per say but it takes away the rpg elements if you are rewarded for completely irrelevant actions
Logged
Got a pterodactyl with a knobby turtle shell composed entirely of vomit in my caverns. Apparently it moves deliberately. It's teamed up with a giant steam shrimp.
Dwarf Fortress:
Where you aren't hallucinating.

Vactor

  • Bay Watcher
  • ^^ DF 1.0 ^^
    • View Profile
Re: Learning brain surgery by shooting douchebags in the neck
« Reply #3 on: June 21, 2011, 04:42:55 pm »

Max White got to my point first, which is game design choices trend towards what is the most fun.  Scripted RPG games have developed a completionist tendency in the players, with missed opportunities being a point of failure.  While giving books in-game usefulness seems immersive, it really just gives the player one more object to find every last one of before having fulfilled their character's full potential.

I think part of this is due to the fact that there is no cost to doing everything rather than some.  In Morrowind you would be wasting your time if you weren't jumping, because there wasn't really a price for that choice.  Similarly reading books and amassing knowledge has no price beyond play time.
Logged
Wreck of Theseus: My 2D Roguelite Mech Platformer
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=141525.0

My AT-ST spore creature http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0btwvL9CNlA

nenjin

  • Bay Watcher
  • Inscrubtable Exhortations of the Soul
    • View Profile
Re: Learning brain surgery by shooting douchebags in the neck
« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2011, 04:47:51 pm »

Quote
In Morrowind you would be wasting your time if you weren't jumping, because there wasn't really a price for that choice

Well, there was stamina, and I remember a few times while "hopping" to the next town, I got an encounter and found myself with zero stamina. That made it awfully hard to run or fight.

My take on it is though, until players willingly accept a lot of real life tedium as a "cost" we're not going to reach the point where these mechanics are balanced enough to satisfy our expectations. Jumping for 8 hours in one day leaves you exhausted, sore the next day and you're probably forgoing a lot of other stuff you might want to do, like sleep, game or hang out with friends.

Games can't pull that off, because it can't emulate all activities we might prefer to spend our time doing and particularly because of the "lost opportunity." Games that load up on time sensitive content and mutually exclusive activities tend to led me into a state of gaming paralysis: I don't want to sacrifice X for Y, I want to get X on my own time and Y when I'm damn well ready.
Logged
Cautivo del Milagro seamos, Penitente.
Quote from: Viktor Frankl
When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves.
Quote from: Sindain
Its kinda silly to complain that a friendly NPC isn't a well designed boss fight.
Quote from: Eric Blank
How will I cheese now assholes?
Quote from: MrRoboto75
Always spaghetti, never forghetti

breadbocks

  • Bay Watcher
  • A manacled Mentlegen. (ಠ_ృ)
    • View Profile
Re: Learning brain surgery by shooting douchebags in the neck
« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2011, 04:53:27 pm »

This is more applicable to the other games forum, but meh.

Either way, I don't give a shit about "MOAR REALISTICS!!1!!11eleven!". If I want to shoot up a guy to learn how to speak eloquently, then son of a gun, you better damn let me.
Logged
Clearly, cakes are the next form of human evolution.

Il Palazzo

  • Bay Watcher
  • And lo, the Dude did abide. And it was good.
    • View Profile
Re: Learning brain surgery by shooting douchebags in the neck
« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2011, 04:55:06 pm »

There are games that use the "learning-by-practicing" approach(Bloodstone, and I think Magic Candle series; some roguelikes), just as well as those that modify the difficulty of mini games based on skill(Wizardry 8 - lockpicking).
That there is but a few of those, seems to suggest that the approach so despised by you sells better in the end.
Logged

Max White

  • Bay Watcher
  • Still not hollowed!
    • View Profile
Re: Learning brain surgery by shooting douchebags in the neck
« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2011, 04:55:45 pm »

Either way, I don't give a shit about "MOAR REALISTICS!!1!!11eleven!". If I want to shoot up a guy to learn how to speak eloquently, then son of a gun, you better damn let me.
TOO BAD! If you want the charisma skill to lower the price of that awesome weapon to a reasonable amount, your going to have to talk more than in a Japanese dating sim! SUFFER THE ETERNAL GRIND!!!

Vertigon

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Learning brain surgery by shooting douchebags in the neck
« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2011, 05:01:52 pm »

Damn. I thought this thread would actually teach me brain surgery by shooting douchebags in the neck. Well, a lively debate is somewhat similar, so here goes:

There is realism done right, and realism done wrong. Done right, at least in my opinion, it would include leveling skills by using them, rather than by shooting douchebags in the neck for experience. Done wrong, a good example includes New Vegas' hardcore system. It doesn't really add much other than tedium and artificial difficulty.
Logged

piecewise

  • Bay Watcher
  • [TORTURE_FOR_FUN]
    • View Profile
    • Stuff
Re: Learning brain surgery by shooting douchebags in the neck
« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2011, 05:14:58 pm »

Well, piecewise, a well written article, on a subject that has had a lot of back and forth between both sides.
But in the end, it all comes down to one simple question. Is more realistic better? Honestly, I have more fun shooting douchebags than pressing X to examine to grind for science points. Although improving your ability to do something by kicking a guy in the groin is unrealistic, it is rewarding you for doing something you dearly want to do. Yes, perk based systems are silly, but that does not mean bad. There are other games that use more realistic systems, like you would like (Go check out Elona, just what you need) but they aren't just intrinsically better.

And as far as the 'You are level 7 and you need to be level 8 to open this door' style skill challenges, well that is just a design choice to keep you away from high level content until you are high level. It is also great to help balance the game, as somebody who wanted to play as a brute who is using a long sword and put all their skills into helping in close combat is going to destroy all before them, while somebody who wanted to play with stealth would have a few lock picking skills. So the thief has access to some content the brute does not, including some nice weapons to make up for their lack of skill in combat.

These are game design choices, and thought about very hard in dev, not to be realistic, but to make for a good game. Not saying these choices are the only choices to make a good game, but that is their justification.
And thats the thing, those choices don't make a BAD game, they just detract from true role playing. Let me explain. Say you were to ask a character "What are you?" And he were to reply "a master swordsman". If you were to ask him "how did you become a master swordsman" which would be the answer you want to hear? "I fought many battles" or "I baked 3 and a half thousand cakes". That second one is the thing that really kills roleplaying because it exposes the character as, at best, a random collection of skills and at worse, a specially chosen collection of skills built to extract the most out of the game. It's like how practically everyone, from bumpersword wielding berserker to sneaky pants rogue bumped up their speech in Fallout because the game relied so heavily upon it. It wasn't about playing a role or living out an character, it was about picking the skills that the game used the most. It changes the game from true rpg, to more of a first person shooter with rpg elements.

It by no means makes it a bad game, but it does make it feel less like your actions have a significant impact on your character and reduces all growth to distributing points on a spreadsheet.

There are games that use the "learning-by-practicing" approach(Bloodstone, and I think Magic Candle series; some roguelikes), just as well as those that modify the difficulty of mini games based on skill(Wizardry 8 - lockpicking).
That there is but a few of those, seems to suggest that the approach so despised by you sells better in the end.
Thats hard to say one way or another. It would probably depend on marketing to the right crowd more then anything. But, almost inevitably, the streamlined (and main stream) you make a game, the more it will sell. And The newer fallouts are certainly designed to be easier and less complex then their predecessors.

Aqizzar

  • Bay Watcher
  • There is no 'U'.
    • View Profile
Re: Learning brain surgery by shooting douchebags in the neck
« Reply #10 on: June 21, 2011, 05:17:46 pm »

There are games that use the "learning-by-practicing" approach(Bloodstone, and I think Magic Candle series; some roguelikes), just as well as those that modify the difficulty of mini games based on skill(Wizardry 8 - lockpicking).
That there is but a few of those, seems to suggest that the approach so despised by you sells better in the end.
Thats hard to say one way or another. It would probably depend on marketing to the right crowd more then anything. But, almost inevitably, the streamlined (and main stream) you make a game, the more it will sell. And The newer fallouts are certainly designed to be easier and less complex then their predecessors.

Complete and total bullshit, nostalgia goggles of the highest order.  You have actually played the original Fallouts, right?  They have exactly the "learning brain surgery by headshots" business you're railing about.  You earn experience by doing whatever, and then spend it doing whatever you want.  Slaughter a few dozen radscorpions, and you improve your lockpicking ability at your next level up.  Nothing about being "streamlined" or "main stream" cheapens a game, as proven by the fact that you're remembering the old Fallouts as being more complex than they actually were, to fit your argument.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2011, 05:19:49 pm by Aqizzar »
Logged
And here is where my beef pops up like a looming awkward boner.
Please amplify your relaxed states.
Quote from: PTTG??
The ancients built these quote pyramids to forever store vast quantities of rage.

Dimitri

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Learning brain surgery by shooting douchebags in the neck
« Reply #11 on: June 21, 2011, 05:31:01 pm »

Just read your article, and I think I have a few reasonable points to bring up.
(These are just opinions, obviously.)

1. The use of abstract skill points is a standby of rpg's for a rather solid reason: What you can do should be based upon what your character is capable of, not what you as a player can do.
Now, to take the lockpick example, that's an idiotic 'feature' that Bethesda brought to the table with Fallout 3. In the older titles a character with next to no skill in science/lockpicking could attempt to deal with anything that came their way in that regard. Their odds of success were nearly zero, but there was always that 'Dumb Luck' factor. (A critical success, more or less.)

2. The abstraction is odd in modern games due to the drastically different timescales used in-game. Fallout: New Vegas may take a month or so of in-game time to beat, whereas in the tabletop, a single campaign may well take many months, if not years of in-game time.
There is also the lack of the human element: You and your party could agree to crash in-town for a month, realistically allowing you to search someone out to teach you a skill.
This doesn't translate well to more modern titles, obviously.
Also, there were generally alternatives to most actions. Can't pick locks? Break the door down. Place a brick of plastique and blow it open. Shoot the lock out. Etc. Again, the human element bring common sense and compromise, something lacking in game engines.

3. 'Learn-By-Doing' systems are a pretty ideal, but notoriously bad in practice. You couldn't -pay- me to play Oblivion again. Now, having to seek out a trainer to teach you  skills you have no knowledge of, while being able to put a certain number of skillpoints into a skill you actually use may be a nice meeting point between the two outlooks.

4. This is -purely- opinion, but minigames are horrible. To me, they don't add anything, and really just serve to frustrate me with their tedium. On the other hand, I enjoyed the hardcore mode in NV. It was light enough to not control my every action, but made a big enough difference in combat (No insta-stims) to add a small level of challenge to a relatively easy game.

5. I completely agree with 'Hard Limits' being silly. If you want to go somewhere or try something, by all means, do it. Just try to avoid the heavily armed bandits and horrible beasts along the way. Actually, apart from the minigames, Obsidian did a fairly good job in this regard. You can use any weapon available to you, though you may not use it well at all, and you can go just about anywhere, assuming you're resourceful enough to avoid the ravenous fauna.

Sorry if that came out as an incoherent rant. :D
Logged

sonerohi

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Learning brain surgery by shooting douchebags in the neck
« Reply #12 on: June 21, 2011, 05:33:07 pm »

I've yet to see a game incorporate both. Like, earn fractions of a skill point every time you use the skill, but also earn general experience you can distribute.
Logged
I picked up the stone and carved my name into the wind.

Blargityblarg

  • Bay Watcher
  • rolypolyrolypolyrolypoly
    • View Profile
Re: Learning brain surgery by shooting douchebags in the neck
« Reply #13 on: June 21, 2011, 05:35:20 pm »

I've yet to see a game incorporate both. Like, earn fractions of a skill point every time you use the skill, but also earn general experience you can distribute.

Fable did.
Logged
Blossom of orange
Shit, nothing rhymes with orange
Wait, haikus don't rhyme

Il Palazzo

  • Bay Watcher
  • And lo, the Dude did abide. And it was good.
    • View Profile
Re: Learning brain surgery by shooting douchebags in the neck
« Reply #14 on: June 21, 2011, 05:40:07 pm »

I've yet to see a game incorporate both. Like, earn fractions of a skill point every time you use the skill, but also earn general experience you can distribute.

Fable did.
And Elona, and ADOM(in a more indirect way), Gearhead too. Probably many more.
Logged
Pages: [1] 2 3 4