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[axefrog]

A few people like the nostalgia they get from the ASCII interface, and the depth of the game is such that many put up with the user interface in order access the incredible depth that is apparent in Dwarf Fortress.

I can't help but wonder though how many people are essentially being pushed away from ever giving this game a proper go because (a) the graphics are basically nonexistant and (b) the user interface is so terribly lacking and unintuitive! The user interface is not just important, it's essential! The user interface, to most who play a game, IS the game! We don't see what's behind the graphics and user interface, we only experience what we see and interact with.

Now, from searching through the forums it has become obvious to me that Toady is doing what he loves and that is building intricate systems that control the way a world runs and responds. I am a developer myself, so I can very much appreciate how interesting puzzles like this can hold one's attention for an almost indefinite length of time, particularly as opposed to working on the stuff that bores the crap out of you. It's obvious that user interface development is incredibly boring to Toady, or he would work on it. I can't imagine though that he wouldn't love everyone to enjoy his creation and be accessible to the rest of the world who won't overlook the ASCII graphics and horrendous UI. If there are this many people putting up with these problems just so they can get at the gameplay, imagine how successful it would be with a proper user interface and some decent basic graphics! Personally I think this could rival Minecraft in ($$) success if it were a bit more accessible to the masses.

So here's what I suggest. Don't expect Toady to ever work on the UI or the graphics. It ain't gonna happen. Toady is doing what he does best and should keep doing that. Instead, Toady should expose an API for all of the user interface related functionality and then allow someone else, either someone he teams up with or the modding community in general, to handle the UI and graphics for him.

Toady are you reading this? Please expose some sort of API for controlling everything and receiving all of the world data. Allow someone else to build the UI for you! You'll get to keep working on what you want to work on and the game will enter a new era where the number of people getting play it massively increases and the exposure the game gets increases massively also!

[Dutchling]

not going to happen

[axefrog]

not going to happen

Or instead you could reply with a useful response, rather than the type of response the epitomises communities that don't welcome new members?

[Dutchling]

There are other people who are better at that ^^
They'll get here eventually

[tsen]

Axefrog-- this has been suggested many times before, and eventually someone is going to link the relevant posts by Toady. I will summarize for you:

1. Exposing hooks for an API would make it easier to reverse engineer, risking his livelihood and increasing the chance of DF clone spinoffs.
2. Since the game is in beta, things are changing all the time. The API would break constantly and people would get pissy about it and he would probably end up having to spend more time keeping it compatible rather than making the game more awesome.
3. It's his baby, and he wants to be the one to do it.

[blue sam3]

So go do it. I'm sure it would be entirely possible to use C++ or some other language to build a program that would send keystrokes into DF based on a different UI. Might actually have a pop at that when I get time...

[druid91]

I can't help but wonder though how many people are essentially being pushed away from ever giving this game a proper go because (a) the graphics are basically nonexistant and (b) the user interface is so terribly lacking and unintuitive! The user interface is not just important, it's essential! The user interface, to most who play a game, IS the game! We don't see what's behind the graphics and user interface, we only experience what we see and interact with.

I have two issues.

The graphics are good. I'm really quite sick of people complaining about the graphics. The graphics work, and I actually like the default graphics. Every attempt to simulate it in something different has appeared cartoonishly humorous (Stonesense), Or simply surreal, I do believe I saw a mountain on a visualizer once. It looked like cotton candy. And not the spoilered metal.

As for graphics packs, they completely ruin my ability to percieve distance in the game.

And two, the UI isn't that bad, once you get the hang of it it's easy as pie to set up a workshop, designate stone for mining and so on. It takes a few hours of practice, just like with any other game.

[Lord Vetinari]

There's a presentation arc that covers interface, graphics and probably some forms of tutorial which will roll in after all the major gameplay elements that Toady has planned are done (which means it'll probably be the last of all development arcs).

[FallingWhale]

Toady is willing to be slightly inconvenient if it means no one will steal the game. Given how he hardly has money when things are under his control he would starve with clone games.

[nitus]

The notion that support for 3rd party UI would somehow lead to DF source being cracked and copied is rather ludicrous. He could probably release the code deliberately and not see any fork or rival development.

It might become a pain in the butt to give too much support to 3rd party projects for the simple reason that every time Toady went to change something it would break compatibility, and once you open that door to people they will feel entitled. If I were Toady I wouldn't want to have to worry about how development might affect 3rd party projects. Who would?
 
There are several decent graphical tilesets out there, and for me that's as graphical as DF needs to be. The minimalist approach, for me, is part of DF's charm - it makes you have to use your noodle a little to visualize some things, and no CG can compare with the mind's eye. On the list of things I want to see coming to DF, graphics is near the bottom.

[Montague]

The UI... I don't know, because once you've picked it up its really very simple to work. Its as hard as typing, really. You want a wall? bCw It would take longer to navigate menus that accomplish the same thing.

It could maybe use the mouse a bit more, though. It only works for designations like mining right now but I'm sure it would be simple to expand its use for other things like placing workshops, looking, selecting dwarves or ordering troops around.

[optimumtact]

The notion that support for 3rd party UI would somehow lead to DF source being cracked and copied is rather ludicrous. He could probably release the code deliberately and not see any fork or rival development.

There was a period of time where toady actually was being a lot more open with the source. Unfortunately a number of community members started their own game which was basically reverse engineered from Dwarf Fortress. Therefore Toady is unwilling to share much of his code. Furthermore he has stated a number of times that he doesn't want to end up having to feel obligated to someone else to fixe some code or document some API. As much as we enjoy this game, this is still toady's pet project and it's only fun for him when he has no pressure from outside sources about what he wants to do. He likes to develop at his own pace and with his own goals.

Releasing any kind of api makes him beholden to the community, even in a limited way and thats against how he wants to develop this game.
Therefore no API

[Mugros]

It's my impression that Toady likes to program features and the core engine, but doesn't like to work on th UI or graphics.
Without talking about the graphics the UI is awful, bad, inconsistent.
Only a fanboy could write:

And two, the UI isn't that bad, once you get the hang of it it's easy as pie to set up a workshop, designate stone for mining and so on. It takes a few hours of practice, just like with any other game.

A good game might take a few hours to learn. Yes, the game, not only the UI. A good UI doesn't need hours to be mastered. It should be intuitive, easy to learn and consistent. None of that can't be found in DF.
Take the stockpile menu as an example. allow/block/permit/forbid and additional keys for prepared food, usable/unusable items. That's not intuitive. All this could be done with only arrow keys and enter.
Then there is the trade menu and it's display... rope red ... what? cave crocodile ...what?
A list where you can only see what an item is made of is useless. It's a bad example of an UI.
Then you can build constructions and farm plots and resize them with umkh, but zone and designations can be done with enter and cursor. That's inconsistent.
Then there is the mouse and TTF support. Well, obviously Toady found out how to get mouse coordinates and do TTF, but that's all. There is no real benefit taken from this technolgies. TTF text is more readable and room efficient, but the game only renders the same amount of characters that can be seen with block text. The mouse is nice to designate things, but could do so much more.

So, the UI is bad, just because you have learned it doesn't make it a good UI.

And by limiting game development only to himself Toady limits the game also. A game isn't only the logic engine, nor only the UI, nor only the graphics. In it's core DF is a great game. But the UI is so awful and the graphics are so rudimentary that the success is only limited to a hardcore group of people. If he would allow a UI and/or graphics programmer (both of what he isn't) to join the development the game would overall benefit from it. And he would even make a bigger profit. If you see the success of a game as the product of his components (scale 1-10) than DF is now a 10 (core 10 x UI 1 x GFX 1). If everything would be as good as the core it would a success rate of 1000 (core 10 x UI 10 x GFX 10).
And if he is so afraid of spinoffs then he should set up a contract with his co-developers.

Toady is willing to be slightly inconvenient if it means no one will steal the game. Given how he hardly has money when things are under his control he would starve with clone games.

Nonsense.

Maybe he should think about the Minecraft business model.
Sell the game for 5€ now. Increase the amount as the game develops and finally open a business.

Even now his forum has 35000 members. If each one would buy the game for 5$ this would be 175.000$ or if you consider of 2000$ per months, over 7 years of guaranteed income. Additionally there are sponsors who donate a lot of money and donations could still be possible.

[Cpt.tazer]

just a little responce, but i think that the ui and graphics are really good, i like the Ascii element of the game and the UI is simple, and easy to use if you spend a little time to learn where things are, doesent take a genius to figure out that the designation menu designates existing objects, and the build menu builds things, im sick of people complaining about these things and saying "toady should spend his time fixing it" or "the modding community should fix it" is really not helpful at all, this takes away time from toady or the modders for something as simple as someone not taking the time to learn a UI.

[shadowclasper]

I do wonder if he'd be able to set up a modular interface like he did with the graphics of the game...

And honestly, I agree with the statement that graphics should be left by the wayside >> there are current options to improve graphics... but what WOULD be interesting is if the opening screen had a link to the wiki or somewhere else that had EASILY downloadable graphics packs for the game so people could easily change the graphics around and knew it was available.

At the same time... and as a developer as well, I really have to agree that Toady should either contract out for someone to redesign the interface for him, using a nondisclosure agreement with the person to avoid spinoffs or problems (contracted game developers know better than to break that shit >> it's a professional credibility thing. You don't stab the people you depend on for a pay cheque in the back... not if you want anyone to hire you... if someone found out their contracted programmer had broken a non-disclosure agreement it would KILL that developer's career...), that or he should REALLY just knuckle down and redesign the interface. It's not interesting, but it SERIOUSLY needs to be done, especially in light of the military improvements :S it's SUCH a chore working through the menus x-X and they create SUCH a barrier to newbies that it's REALLY getting untenable. If he adds in anything else major without an interface overhaul, we're going to start approaching "unplayability" in problems.

Anyone here want to have to deal with "oh hey, you can now send out armies into the world map to pillage and raid and stuff" with the current interface? I sure as hell don't.