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[Tilla]

Did/do you ever fight, leaf? Ever hit someone in the face? Got into a situation that got out of hand? If not, that explains your reaction.

No.  I have never randomly attacked someone and given them a black eye.  I'm not sure if we can assume this was  "fight that got out of hand"... it could just as easily be a classic assault.

Well, the part where everyone said she was only going to get (probation? I think.) implies this was not that.

Especially invalid because the judges have plead guilty to corruption charges and taking bribes to send more teens to jail.

Really, this doesn't happen in Canada for anything but the most serious cases, schools deal with the issues on their own until it gets too extreme.

[Montague]

This makes me wonder. Say if your alternative was living on the streets untill you died, what would be the best prison to live in the lap of government-funded security and comfort and the best way to get sentenced there?

Googling "Best prisons in the US" didn't work too good. Too much of a contradiction in terms, I guess.

[KaelGotDwarves]

As others have noted, yeah, that's the problem, and I can't believe that some people would rather make prisons worse than try to make the homeless/poverty/healthcare/education situation better.

That's how I feel about it too.

@Motague: There are homeless shelters and food kitchens and such which are sadly underfunded, understaffed, and woefully underprepared all over the US - as far as I've seen. Granted I've only volunteered across maybe 5 states, but I've noticed a bleak pattern. Chicago shelters having to turn away people because there were already people squatting on the floors...

Funding to them and other social programmes are normally the first to go in budget cuts too, at all levels of government.

[Farmerbob]

Did/do you ever fight, leaf? Ever hit someone in the face? Got into a situation that got out of hand? If not, that explains your reaction.

No.  I have never randomly attacked someone and given them a black eye.  I'm not sure if we can assume this was  "fight that got out of hand"... it could just as easily be a classic assault.

Well, the part where everyone said she was only going to get (probation? I think.) implies this was not that.

Especially invalid because the judges have plead guilty to corruption charges and taking bribes to send more teens to jail.

Really, this doesn't happen in Canada for anything but the most serious cases, schools deal with the issues on their own until it gets too extreme.

Didn't used to happen in the US either, as recently as 25 years ago.  If there was a fight, it was handled at the school if possible.  If an injury was sustained that required more attention than the school nurse could provide, then outside intervention might happen.

It was expected that kids would fight, especially boys & young men.  I actually saw teachers allow fights to happen if the fight looked like it was a fair fight, and the adults knew the two fighters.  The adults knew if they interrupted, the fight would just happen elsewhere.  I can still see one of these occasions in my head.  Two male teachers, one a sports coach, the other a math teacher standing at the inner edge of the spectator circle watching a fight happen, watching closely, but with their armed crossed.  When the loser was obvious, the coach waded in, tossed them apart, and both got a trip to the nurse for a checkup, a visit to the vice-principle, and a few days of after school detention.

I actually want back to the school about 10 years ago, and did some maintenance work there.  There was no longer any outdoor recess.  Every student carries a badge like they are employees in a secure area, and the kids are treated like sardines, kept packed together at lunch with only enough cafeteria space opened up to allow the current batch just enough room to set & eat while being closely monitored by at least two adults at all times.

This was NOT a school in a high crime area.

*meh*

*ends derail*

[Aqizzar]

Googling "Best prisons in the US" didn't work too good. Too much of a contradiction in terms, I guess.

Well, none basically.  Hypothetically speaking, if I were homeless, I would do like quite a few do, and rely on repeated misdemeanor crimes to keep me floating in and out of county jails.  The population is considerably less dangerous and there's very little gang presence, precisely because most of the people in there expect not to stay particularly long and then carry on with their lives.  Not to mention, they're considerably less brutal in design, if not particularly well appointed.

This was NOT a school in a high crime area.

If anything, that's exactly the point.  You see that kind of rigid, prison-school mentality, including pressing legal charges against minors for in-school scuffles, in the "better" areas of towns, where they think throwing money and hardass security at childhood problems can make them into a picture-perfect example of good education.  Shitty schools in shitty parts of town can't afford it and probably wouldn't bother if they could, except for metal detectors.  As for the cafeteria thing, that's much more an issue of overcrowding.

[Zangi]

*snip*
I actually want back to the school about 10 years ago, and did some maintenance work there.  There was no longer any outdoor recess.  Every student carries a badge like they are employees in a secure area, and the kids are treated like sardines, kept packed together at lunch with only enough cafeteria space opened up to allow the current batch just enough to eat while being closely monitored by at least two adults at all times.

This was NOT a school in a high crime area.

*meh*

*ends derail*

Maybe they can apply to be a prison and get some of that tasty prison monies.

[nenjin]

Hypothetically speaking, if I were homeless, I would do like quite a few do, and rely on repeated misdemeanor crimes to keep me floating in and out of county jails.

Speaking hypothetically, depending on where you live, your chances of running into a Hangin' Judge who decides to put you deeper into the prison system are probably pretty good trying that.

[KaelGotDwarves]

Speaking hypothetically, depending on where you live, your chances of running into a Hangin' Judge who decides to put you deeper into the prison system are probably pretty good trying that.

Depends if you're white or not.

Might cause a shitstorm, but I'm 75% serious and 75% joking. That's 150%, motherfuckers.

[nenjin]

Depends if you're white or not.

If you're homeless, it doesn't matter what color you are. You're a canker on the ass of American society as far as the legal system is concerned.

[Farmerbob]

This was NOT a school in a high crime area.

If anything, that's exactly the point.  You see that kind of rigid, prison-school mentality, including pressing legal charges against minors for in-school scuffles, in the "better" areas of towns, where they think throwing money and hardass security at childhood problems can make them into a picture-perfect example of good education.  Shitty schools in shitty parts of town can't afford it and probably wouldn't bother if they could, except for metal detectors.  As for the cafeteria thing, that's much more an issue of overcrowding.

The first part makes sense, but the overcrowding at lunch was intentional and by design.  The sections of the cafeteria not "needed" for the current number of students were cleaned (one of the adults was normally a custodian) and the chairs put on the tables to make it clear where the use boundaries were.  If there was no room, the students would be allowed to take down chairs and use tables close to the existing area.  I saw as little as 1/4 of the cafeteria used.

I did in fact speak to one of the assistant principles who I remembered from school, (and who actually remembered me) about the changes, and said it reminded me of a prison more than a school, and he agreed with me privately, shook his head, and said it was forced on them due to potential lawsuits.

[Montague]

Googling "Best prisons in the US" didn't work too good. Too much of a contradiction in terms, I guess.

Well, none basically.  Hypothetically speaking, if I were homeless, I would do like quite a few do, and rely on repeated misdemeanor crimes to keep me floating in and out of county jails.  The population is considerably less dangerous and there's very little gang presence, precisely because most of the people in there expect not to stay particularly long and then carry on with their lives.  Not to mention, they're considerably less brutal in design, if not particularly well appointed.

Jails can be as bad as real prisons, you get many of the same awful inmates since they stay in jail until convicted and sent to prison. I'd guess a jail in say, rural Utah or someplace would be considerably nicer then one in a major city.

[KaelGotDwarves]

Depends if you're white or not.

If you're homeless, it doesn't matter what color you are. You're a canker on the ass of American society as far as the legal system is concerned.

But if you steal in order to go to prison, it's actually well-documented fact that blacks in particular face disproportional reactions from judge and jury in our judicial system. See every case study about the death penalty ever, and the false imprisonment of blacks vs whites for crimes they did not commit. Whites might be sent to social rehabilitation and county jails while blacks are sent to high-security long-term prisons.

[Max White]

Did the title of this thread change?

[nenjin]

But if you steal in order to go to prison, it's actually well-documented fact that blacks in particular face disproportional reactions from judge and jury in our judicial system. See every case study about the death penalty ever, and the false imprisonment of blacks vs whites for crimes they did not commit. Whites might be sent to social rehabilitation and county jails while blacks are sent to high-security long-term prisons.

Which would be relevant if we were talking about jury trials or mounting a legitimate defense. We're not. We're talking about bench trials and the likelihood a judge will see you as a prime candidate for the prison system, because you seem to want to be there. I'm not disagreeing a black homeless man can land in the prison system for their first offense, far from it. I'm just not putting a white homeless man who is also a repeat offender's chances of floating in county forever as much better. The likelihood repeat offenders enter the actual prison system is pretty good, of any color.

[KaelGotDwarves]

Which would be relevant if we were talking about jury trials or mounting a legitimate defense. We're not. We're talking about bench trials and the likelihood a judge will see you as a prime candidate for the prison system, because you seem to want to be there. I'm not disagreeing a black homeless man can land in the prison system for their first offense, far from it. I'm just not putting a white homeless man who is also a repeat offender's chances of floating in county forever as much better. The likelihood repeat offenders enter the actual prison system is pretty good, of any color.

Well, I'm just saying it's relevant because as the case studies show, we're more likely to throw a poor black guy under the bus and more likely to help rehabilitate a poor white man in a social program.

It's kind of like this, but a judge making a decision on it.


Anyhow, that being said - I will refrain from commenting on race any further. Back to the topic of the poor being utterly screwed regardless of race.