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[G-Flex]

I sense a lot of self-deprecation in your posting here. But you got out of it, therefore everybody who can't or doesn't is a "loser bum" and "trash". That doesn't sound particularly fair to me.

Not to disparage whatever effort it took on your part, but the problem with most people who say "pull yourself up by the bootstraps" is that they assume everyone even has bootstraps to begin with.

[Montague]

One is just a normal person who has fallen on hard times and is just struggling to survive. The other is usually bat-shit crazy and simply cannot function in society at all. "Street kids" and the hippie street people adopt something like the latter as a lifestyle choice. Some are erm "hobos" that live in tents in the woods and steal scrap metal and shit from trains to survive. Thats the nitty-gritty of it. You can blame Reagan for kicking out all the non-violent schizophrenics and the sort from the mental institutions, but there is definitely a divide between somebody who is homeless by external factors and one that is homeless by internal factors.

You're making some mistakes here.

• Not everyone who is chronically homeless is "batshit insane" or "can't function in society". Often, the reason they can't function in society is because they're homeless and the problems it causes. See point #2.
• External and internal factors are linked. If you have problems, it could make you homeless. If you are homeless, it can cause you problems. Someone who's living on the streets for years upon years is going to have "internal factors" even if there were none before. There are, in fact, plenty of chronically homeless people who are, well, fairly normal people, or who at least would be if it weren't for their homelessness.
• Where do you even draw the line between "internal" and "external" factors to begin with? It's always an interaction of the two. Just because someone is mentally ill or otherwise incapable of working within society doesn't mean that it's entirely his fault, especially when you consider that being able to "function with society" both depends on what you're like and what society's like, and you can't assume the individual is the problem there.

You are giving people too much credit. Normal (which is almost a loaded word, sorry) people simply do not allow themselves to reach the point where they have absolutely nothing and have nothing but a dirty set of clothing to work with. They go to something like living out of a car, using a PO box as an address and they recover one way or another. The people who somehow manage to stay utterly destitute but out of prison and out of mainstream society are that way because they are incapable, apathetic or unwilling to work themselves out of the situation they are in.

When I say external factor, I mean something like, say a carpenter gets laid off, cannot find a job no matter how hard he tries, is eneligble for any welfare benefits, spends his savings, sells everything he can to pay rent, is eventiually evicted and now lives in his truck he parks in woods and tries to get work at the local day-labor.

Internal factor, I mean the person is a schizophrenic with no family, a drug addict with no support, a guy with a personality or philosophy that refuses to participate the society, or a guy that simply cannot get his life together, a misanthropic guy that simply cannot deal with people and can never hold down a job and is kicked out of shelters, ect, ect.

The idea is if the problem lies with circumstance, or the problem lies within the individual. People are not helpless, they are ultimately responsible for their own destiny.

[MaximumZero]

But you got out of it, therefore everybody who can't or doesn't is a "loser bum" and "trash". That doesn't sound particularly fair to me. Not to disparage whatever effort it took on your part, but the problem with most people who say "pull yourself up by the bootstraps" is that they assume everyone even has bootstraps to begin with.

There are thousands of people out on the streets of the country who are able to work (and would probably do a much better job than I.) Sitting on the corner feeling sorry for yourself isn't going to help the situation. You have to keep moving, no matter what. People with legitimate mental or physical health issues should certainly be pointed toward the services available to them. Another type of person is the drifter. That's a legit lifestyle, and some people enjoy it. I'd think about it if I wasn't tied down. I have no problem with the previous two types of people, but the ones who just sit on their asses and cry and hold a cup out to collect change? Those guys get no pity from me. Things don't just get better on their own, you have to make it happen.

[KaelGotDwarves]

Heck, I'm a 'drifter' at the moment with no permanent address who has mostly given up on "normal jobs" and instead do all sorts of fun insanity to get by - and it works and I'm pretty happy with what I'm doing, eventually I'll be rectifying that and going on to grad school.

Of course, I've built up a support base of friends and family, I have no debt, great credit, and have played the game within society as good as I could.

Some people start out with nothing and never learn how to manage any of that.

[G-Flex]

But you got out of it, therefore everybody who can't or doesn't is a "loser bum" and "trash". That doesn't sound particularly fair to me. Not to disparage whatever effort it took on your part, but the problem with most people who say "pull yourself up by the bootstraps" is that they assume everyone even has bootstraps to begin with.

There are thousands of people out on the streets of the country who are able to work (and would probably do a much better job than I.) Sitting on the corner feeling sorry for yourself isn't going to help the situation. You have to keep moving, no matter what. People with legitimate mental or physical health issues should certainly be pointed toward the services available to them. Another type of person is the drifter. That's a legit lifestyle, and some people enjoy it. I'd think about it if I wasn't tied down. I have no problem with the previous two types of people, but the ones who just sit on their asses and cry and hold a cup out to collect change? Those guys get no pity from me. Things don't just get better on their own, you have to make it happen.

I would say that being so despondent and run-down/demotivated that you're sleeping in the streets and eating out of dumpsters even when you're otherwise capable of getting out of the situation counts as a "legitimate mental health issue".

[GlyphGryph]

MZ, not everyone has good coping skills. I've been homeless myself, I know I can handle it and even crawl back out of it... for a while, at least. But then, I'm pretty good at thinking in ways many people aren't. Of course, things that normal people see as no problem at all are things that I tend to be absolutely terrible at, despite my effort, and kind of how I ended up that way. And heck, a lot of it is just luck. In a situation like that, bad luck tends to compound itself pretty quickly.

It's hard to keep struggling when you don't even know what you're doing wrong, and you just can't figure it out. When it looks like there is no chance of things getting better, no matter what you do. And the sad fact is for many of the homeless, there really is no way for them to dig themselves out of it.

There are thousands of people out on the streets of the country who are able to work (and would probably do a much better job than I.)

Of course, they're never going to get a chance if they don't know how to find those work opportunities. The skills "being a capable worker" and "being capable at finding work" are not actually all that related.

[Chunes]

Sweet mother of God...

29 years in solitary confinement.. how the hell did he survive?

Oh, I am pissed. I am seething. I am /this/ close to dismantling that damn prison myself, brick by damn brick.

I am this close to being that place's worst enemy.

[Leafsnail]

Of course, they're never going to get a chance if they don't know how to find those work opportunities. The skills "being a capable worker" and "being capable at finding work" are not actually all that related.

Not to mention that almost noone would want to hire someone who's been long term homeless.

[Nadaka]

Even if "ultramax" isn't a real level, I have to wonder what the hell is so bad that that supermax just isn't good enough? Do they think they're some kind of uber-Hannibal Lecter, where if you even step outside the cell for one minute you'll McGyver some air molecules into a laser gun and slaughter your way to freedom?

The scary part is that some of these people are almost that resourceful. You wouldn't even believe what prisoners have weaponized if I told you. People in that high of a security level have almost nothing to do but hone their fighting and weapon-making abilites for the rest of their life. Some of the most skilled fighters in the world might be locked up in Supermax prisons.

Still better than in other parts of the world, though. I remember hearing about a Brazilian prison where a guard was bribed by a prisoner to smuggle in a grenade.

I know some people that worked for the Brazillian prison system back in the 60s. The prison was a group of huts surrounded by a 20 foot deep dry moat. There was no fence, no wall, and only a small guard post outside the channel. Escapes were very very rare, mostly because that moat was filled with hungry dogs that weighed 200lbs each and are trained to eat people.

[SalmonGod]

Sometimes people just get screwed.  Their lives are dominated by others who take everything possible from them materially, bodily, and spiritually before leaving them in the cold.  They find themselves completely alone and crippled with emotional turmoil that makes it hard for them to find support. 

I've also heard from a former homeless person that one of the biggest problems is finding a place to rest.  This probably applies more to dense urban areas, where every space a person can occupy is owned by someone who doesn't want you occupying it.  This person described being exhausted to delirium, smelly, and wandering aimlessly, understanding that they were in such a condition that they would be unwelcome anywhere they went and something like a job interview, even for the shittiest McDonalds type job, had become very unrealistic.

[The Merchant Of Menace]

As a point of interest, bins are surprisingly comfortable, assuming you can find one that isn't full of broken glass

[Darvi]

I concur.

[inteuniso]

Sweet mother of God...

29 years in solitary confinement.. how the hell did he survive?

Wait... who had 29 years in solitary confinement?

[MaximumZero]

And you can shower and get clothes at almost any truck stop for free, provided you look pitiful enough.

[Montague]

And you can shower and get clothes at almost any truck stop for free, provided you look pitiful enough.

Honestly, if you have maybe 500-1000$ around before you hit rock bottom you can set yourself up rather nicely for a long while with a gym membership for showers/ loitering/ storage... sometimes laundry and a Fed-Ex box for an address so you can put something on applications.

You can accomplish a lot without much money if you find yourself out of options.