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[Think0028]

@ think0028 I've heard you've played decent scum before. Between all of the players who do you think is might likely scum.

1) So far I've only been scum in one game, and that game didn't even finish properly.
2) Powder Miner, because he still hasn't posted. Aside from that, I'm still asking questions.

Powder Miner: get in here.

kilakan: You've had an awfully fun time debating about ICs with UltraValican. Are you going to act on your suspicions at all? You've been tunnelling UltraValican for while now. Any questions for anyone else?

UltraValican: Why cast your vote on someone who has two votes already without explanation? Clearly after you were questioned on it you came up with reasoning. Where was it when you were actually voting him?

MAJOR PET PEEVE TIME: Seriously, guys. Take a second and look at how the other posters' names are spelled. It's very easy to just copy paste and get their name right. You have no excuse for not taking another 30 seconds to spellcheck your post and make sure you didn't get their name wrong.

[breadbocks]

Fair enough, Jim. Unvote Jim [/toolazytoquote]

Unvote MaxWhite
kikilan What did you think of vectors nice little tutorial on mafia, and  particularly his tone on suggesting that you might be of an alignment that wants to hinder the town(scum basically)?

@every one who is not an IC or kikilan:(can i direct a question at everyone?) on a scale of one to ten how suspicious would you be of someone who was trying to get one of our valuble ICs lynched?

Woah woah woah.
Vote Valican. You've got some explaining to do. That's a pretty blatant bandwagon. And then you go straight to mind games by painting the ICs as some magical angels who will save us from sure destruction. Wakeupcall: They can teach equally well while dead (An exception to the only one "Bah" post is made for them.) and they have an equal chance of being scum as the rest of us. If something one of the ICs says strikes Kikilan as scummy, it's well within his responsibilities to question them on it.

Valican, do you have any points of your own in pursuing Kikilan, or are you  just mooching off one of the ICs questions to drive a mislynch?

[breadbocks]

Afterpost edit: I just realized I misspelled Kilakan's name wrong. Pretend I spelled it right.

[Darvi]

We're not omnipotent.

What a plot twist!

No seriously, I didn't expect that.

[Vector]

What a plot twist!

No seriously, I didn't expect that.

Until this becomes a "press X to kill scum" game, I don't have mod powers.

Just the usual dose of awesome and asskicking that comes of being Vector.  I.e., what may be effective omnipotence, but not truly absolute power.

[Max White]

@every one who is not an IC or kikilan:(can i direct a question at everyone?) on a scale of one to ten how suspicious would you be of someone who was trying to get one of our valuble ICs lynched?

Hmm, 7? They could be scum, but then this is a beginner's game, so they could be missing the point. More likely paranoid scum though.

@Max White how do you feel about vectors accusation of kikilan

Well let's look at her reasoning, and assess each point on it's own merit.

UltraValican, I've never seen you around here before, so answer me a question. As a cop, how would you determine who to inspect at night?

-If you were a doctor, how would you go about determining the most likely person to be targeted by the scum at night, so you might best protect them?

Notice patterns in people copying/mirroring others.  This is a subtle form of buddying I call "emotional alignment."  In case you're wondering about this, I read in a book that autistic kids don't realize that they should copy their friends' opinions in order to get along with them.  Identify themselves as the same team, as it were.  So: buddying.

Yes Vector, the new player is copying the actions of the guy who knows what he is doing, and being scum is the only reason? Vector has accused both Jim and kilakan of being scum for this argument to work, as the entire thing is based on a relationship between the two. But I see a good chance that a new player wasn't exactly sure of how to g about things, so is copying the actions of somebody who does. This is hardly reasonable evidence of a scumtell.

UltraValican-Why would you not reciprocate an answer to Jim? not only would it not hurt you at all, but it is a suspicious thing to do attempting to not get tied into an answer/question circle with someone and instead bounce a question onto the next person.

Notice people trying to start a fight and declare suspicion for non-suspicious things.  This is also called town direction, usually performed with a dish of sidelining.

In this instance, perceive attempts to create a situation in which OMGUS-wars are occurring.

Well maybe Vector, but I think you give a new player a little too much credit. This looks a lot more like amateur scum hunting then a cunning plot devised by scum master mind.

The game just started. I am suspicious of no one at all.

I care because it was a suspicious act, and as such it is something I noticed, and since I noticed I brought it into light, you were avoiding having more questions asked of you, and having to give more answers.
UltraValican-Why would you assume Jim would have suspicions already? so far he has posts from two other people, though your reluctance to think of a better question, and do the minimal scum-hunting to just keep suspicion off of you I am finding pretty scummy.  I have a FoS on you.

. . . Righto.

Yea, I'm lost on this one too, and putting it in the 'lulwut' pile. Not sure what logical reasoning came out here at all.

I think that the idea of a mafia IC is a bit unsettling, and as such I shall be taking both with a grain of salt, but the IC who offers the least advice would likely be my target for a potential Mafia IC.

Again: undermining the biggest town asset and pitting the ICs against each other.

At this stage we were all under the impression that one of you wanted to slit out throats, and would be supporting the mafia rather then townies, you were alredy pitted against each other. I had to convince myself that the IC's were my friends in this game (And trusting somebody isn't something you do naturally in one of these games) so I can't blame somebody for being a little paranoid.

MaxWhite-How would you avoid detection as a Scum, if you plan on taking out the lurkers at night?

For someone who is ragging on someone else for asking bad questions, he asks some pretty terrible questions.

Also seems to have a weird thing for talking to Max White, without showing any interest in the answers.

Wait, let me get this right. Somebody askes what I would do as scum, with no follow up, and they asked a fine and dandy question, somebody else does the same, and it is a 'terrible question' and 'without showing any interest'. This is a massive double standard, and looks to me like Vector cares more about piling something on kilakan then hutning scum.

~Oh just snip, dammit.

Holy mother of Batman, that's a lot of run-on sentences.

Also, the usual issue with folks nudging other folks to consider lynching them gosh-darned ICs off the planet.  Because they might just give bad and misleading advice, as they've sworn not to do.  Hurm.

Well that wasn't just a little emotive, don;t you think Vector. This starts out with a comment on the lengh of sentances? Will we start calling scum because somebody used a semi colon when a colon was due? It even ends with a trademark 'hurm', in what has no debating value, it just undermines the integrity of the post on an emotional level.

Think: Do you approve of a lynch on day one, even if we are not fully sure of Mafia status, just some what sure?

Yes. Not lynching on Day 1 just gives scum a free kill, and means that if we have 2 mislynches, the Mafia win.

Think-But if lynching on day 1 gives a mislynch that would just make the mafia win faster, so:What happens if you are not sure of anything at the end of the first day, how would you go about picking who to random-lynch?

And... what looks like working with Max White in order to pressure for no-lynches D1 if one isn't "sure."

So now their is a relationship between kilakan and myself showing that we are scum, bringing the total to three now? Kilakan, Jim and Myself? So do you honestly think that in your first post you managed to find all three scum players, Vector? When a player asked a good question, and another gives a scumm answer, that does not mean the first player must have been conspiring with the other. What sort of half baked reasoning is that? We hunt scum, expect interesting answers from questions asked by honest people. This looks like nothing more than another attempt to tunnel kilakan.

So all in all I think Vectors reasoning was total BS, focused waaay too much on one person, and those that have interacted with him (No really, other people play this game too) and didn't ask a single question.

Great, didn't want to go into all that, Vector being an IC and all, but you asked.

[breadbocks]

Max, the last line really doesn't need to be and shouldn't be there. IC shouldn't mean anything to your thought process, except when reading advice.

[Max White]

I would prefer waiting to argue with ICs until a little later on, especially when I think one of them is scum. Might be something to learn from them.

Regardless, as you cans see, being an IC won't stop me from being suspicions of somebody, or posting why if prompted.

[Jim Groovester]

@every one who is not an IC or kikilan:(can i direct a question at everyone?) on a scale of one to ten how suspicious would you be of someone who was trying to get one of our valuble ICs lynched?

This question reeks of buddying.

@ kikalan wait, there is a non-playing IC? I complely forgot about him/her, in that case disregard the IC suspicion in my previous post, I was in no means trying to shower the IC's with praise and I’m not quite sure where I did try to shower  them with praise. I hold the IC's valuable because this IS my first game of mafia ever so i figured it would be important to keep them alive until had a suspicion that they would be scum. So really the only reasons I was protecting the IC's were
- to prevent a mislynch
- to prevent the townie IC from getting mislynched which would put the town at a severe disadvantage
@ kikilan which of the IC's are, you most suspicious of being scum since scum Ics seem to be a major concern for you, if it is a major concern.

And more buddying.

Is there any reason why you are both buddying up to the ICs, while at the same time testing the waters for how suspicious it would be to lynch them?

I'd say that's a pretty inconsistent thing to do. Which is scummy.

You should be careful with the questions you ask, because the ones you did just betrayed what your motives are. You should ask questions that make it look like you're interested in finding scum.

((IC question:What exactly constitutes pointless questions, normally I see people asking what would they do if they were type things, and I thought that was vaguely how the questioning started?))

Any question that doesn't lead to you finding scum somehow.

Well let's look at her reasoning, and assess each point on it's own merit.

You didn't really have to answer the question in that much detail (i.e., you could've said "It's crap" and said a brief explanation why), though it's good that you did.

Though, now that you did, you can turn some of those points into questions aimed at Vector. If you think Vector's points are bullshit, you can and should press her about it.

Max, the last line really doesn't need to be and shouldn't be there. IC shouldn't mean anything to your thought process, except when reading advice.

Yes, listen to this guy. He knows what's up.

If you don't attack us when you have reason to, that's just as bad as not attacking any other player when you have reason to.

I would prefer waiting to argue with ICs until a little later on, especially when I think one of them is scum. Might be something to learn from them.

Regardless, as you cans see, being an IC won't stop me from being suspicions of somebody, or posting why if prompted.

No, go argue with them now. You're sitting on decent points against Vector and you're not doing anything with them.

If you've got an angle on a player, pursue that motherfucking angle. Any player, whether they're an IC or not.

I hope you understand me. Delaying just gives people time to prepare a defense, and you want to catch people off guard with probing and difficult questions. That's the whole point of scumhunting.

[Max White]

Well, I'm not one to go against the advice of an IC. I was thinking of sitting and watching until later on today, but you only live a thousand times, so let's get going.

UltraValican

@ JimWho are you most suspicious of at the moment

Why so paranoid? A few posts in, before some people had even posted, and already your worried about who Jim is suspicious of? One of the most powerful players in the game, who is very capable of spotting scumtells, and your worried about he's opinion.

@ Kilikan, if you were scum who would you kill, or if you feel you don't have any incentive to kill yet, how would you go about killing

(For future reference, remember that vector had not yet shown to be active) for a new player, asking who to kill could very well be because they want to know who to kill. Something that could be easily answered in their scum chat, if only the other mafia player had shown up there yet.

@ kikilan, if which one of the ic's are you most worried about being scum (if your worried at all)

Once again, paranoid about who is suspicious of whom. In this case he is looking to see if anybody has somehow picked out he's buddy scum.

~Snip

I have been over this post. Just about every point is BS. This is the single most scummy act the entire game. It was all about incriminating Kilakan without a second glace at anybody else, apart from when it supported her argument against  Kilakan. Scum trying to tunnel a new player into a mislynch first day.

[/color]kikilan What did you think of vectors nice little tutorial on mafia, and  particularly his tone on suggesting that you might be of an alignment that wants to hinder the town(scum basically)?

@every one who is not an IC or kikilan:(can i direct a question at everyone?) on a scale of one to ten how suspicious would you be of someone who was trying to get one of our valuble ICs lynched?

Newby mistake. Buddying your scum partner so much as to follow there lead in voting.

@Max White how do you feel about vectors accusation of kikilan

Fishing to see who believed Vector. He wants support against kikilan.


Massive buddying going on UltraValican behalf. Vector ignoring he's mistakes. The two of them focusing on a single player. UltraValican ultra paranoid about who is onto the scum.

[Vector]

Yes Vector, the new player is copying the actions of the guy who knows what he is doing, and being scum is the only reason? Vector has accused both Jim and kilakan of being scum for this argument to work, as the entire thing is based on a relationship between the two. But I see a good chance that a new player wasn't exactly sure of how to g about things, so is copying the actions of somebody who does. This is hardly reasonable evidence of a scumtell.

This is based on a player who has played a BM here before (before asking for replacement) copying the IC's question.  It stinks.

It requires no assumption whatsoever that they are in cahoots, simply that one player is riding on the other's coattails.

Well maybe Vector, but I think you give a new player a little too much credit. This looks a lot more like amateur scum hunting then a cunning plot devised by scum master mind.

That is to be determined by the results of the attack.  I didn't say I was lynch-prepped, now did I?

At this stage we were all under the impression that one of you wanted to slit out throats, and would be supporting the mafia rather then townies, you were alredy pitted against each other. I had to convince myself that the IC's were my friends in this game (And trusting somebody isn't something you do naturally in one of these games) so I can't blame somebody for being a little paranoid.

Fair.

Wait, let me get this right. Somebody askes what I would do as scum, with no follow up, and they asked a fine and dandy question, somebody else does the same, and it is a 'terrible question' and 'without showing any interest'. This is a massive double standard, and looks to me like Vector cares more about piling something on kilakan then hutning scum.

I've been over this previously in this thread, but I'll say it again: it's not so much about the questions you ask as what you do with them.  One question without followup is an RVS that failed.  That happens.  Asking the same person 6 unrelated questions is an exercise in smokescreening absurdity.

Well that wasn't just a little emotive, don;t you think Vector. This starts out with a comment on the lengh of sentances? Will we start calling scum because somebody used a semi colon when a colon was due? It even ends with a trademark 'hurm', in what has no debating value, it just undermines the integrity of the post on an emotional level.

I'm not going to say how many people I've caught based on things like changing the way they type; often, run-ons fit with fear, and so on, and so forth.  It's a valid tactic.  But if you want to know, "Pandar, twice" is part of that group of people.

"Hurm" is going to stay.  If you don't like it, tough pancakes.

So now their is a relationship between kilakan and myself showing that we are scum, bringing the total to three now? Kilakan, Jim and Myself?

Since when did I say Jim was scum?

Do you know something I don't?

So do you honestly think that in your first post you managed to find all three scum players, Vector?

There's two scum players in this game.

Also, no.  I haven't played seriously for nearly a year, now.  Good reason why I'm actually playing in a BM.

When a player asked a good question, and another gives a scumm answer, that does not mean the first player must have been conspiring with the other. What sort of half baked reasoning is that?

I suppose I should have said "playing off of Max White's question."  I meant "working with the material provided, perhaps unintentionally, by Max White."  My mistake.

We hunt scum, expect interesting answers from questions asked by honest people. This looks like nothing more than another attempt to tunnel kilakan.

Is there some reason why you take issue with my attacking him?

I am asking a question of him--the question everyone should be asking everyone.  "Are you scum, bucko?"  It just has an exclamation point, rather than a question mark, at the end.  That's something you should be able to see by now.

So all in all I think Vectors reasoning was total BS, focused waaay too much on one person, and those that have interacted with him (No really, other people play this game too) and didn't ask a single question.

And I think the fact that you totally ignored my FoS on you is pretty annoying.  I'd like it if you addressed that at some point, if only by saying "noted."

Your understanding of my reasoning is flawed in places--I have attempted to amend this as necessary.  As you may have noticed, there was a bit of a snafu where it became clear that my understanding of the IC setup is different from that of some of the players.  Kilakan's questions occurred in a different context than the one I considered obvious.  I will consider unvoting him once he has responded to my allegations, as is logical.

That's right, I didn't ask any questions and I largely focused on one person, with a couple of statements on another.  Why is that an issue?

Great, didn't want to go into all that, Vector being an IC and all, but you asked.

Poor baby.

I have been over this post. Just about every point is BS. This is the single most scummy act the entire game. It was all about incriminating Kilakan without a second glace at anybody else, apart from when it supported her argument against  Kilakan. Scum trying to tunnel a new player into a mislynch first day.

Then why aren't you voting me?

Who was that FoS on, anyway?  Was it levied for stuff Kilakan did?  I'd go back and check to see what I actually wrote.

Also, no, I am not tunneling for a mislynch    I'm making material.  Going, as always, for Zugzwang.

Vector ignoring he's mistakes.

Spoiler: Nah. (click to show/hide)

Unvote MaxWhite
kikilan What did you think of vectors nice little tutorial on mafia, and  particularly his tone on suggesting that you might be of an alignment that wants to hinder the town(scum basically)?

Use fewer weasel words.

@every one who is not an IC or kikilan:(can i direct a question at everyone?) on a scale of one to ten how suspicious would you be of someone who was trying to get one of our valuble ICs lynched?

You can direct a question at everyone, with the danger that I might also answer it.

I would be suspicious of:

People trying to lynch an IC on good evidence: 0
People getting excited about IC-lynching just because "one might be scum and they'd be dangerous and it's better to lynch first, scumhunt never:" 5-8, depending on time and circumstance.

@ kikilan which of the IC's are, you most suspicious of being scum since scum Ics seem to be a major concern for you, if it is a major concern.

Too passive.  You're leaving holes in your arguments for people to escape through.

Also, you generally don't have to justify your reason for asking a questions.  Some questions, yes.  Most questions, no.

It's hardly been 24 hours since game start.  The fact that I don't mention every little scummy thing or attack every bad behavior head-on with full-power wrist-slapping does not mean that I'm not paying attention to it.

[kilakan]

kilakan: You've had an awfully fun time debating about ICs with UltraValican. Are you going to act on your suspicions at all? You've been tunnelling UltraValican for while now. Any questions for anyone else?

A problem is that I can only vote on  one person at a time, and my suspicions about ultravalican outweigh those for Vector.  As for questions?  Not really everything I can think of that would be useful is already being asked, when I think of something I'll ask it.

This is based on a player who has played a BM here before (before asking for replacement) copying the IC's question.  It stinks.

It requires no assumption whatsoever that they are in cahoots, simply that one player is riding on the other's coattails.

Ok so now your lying, what a scum move.  For the record I was in a BM about 9 months ago, that ended when 4/7 players were lurkers,  was not one of them, I never asked for a replacement, and both the scum were inactive, so it ended.  Gratz you pick on someone for being 'experienced' in a game they played once, a long time ago, that ended halfway through.

As for responding to your allegations?  I asked a question at basically the same type someone else did, I didn't copy, I just didn't read the ninja post, attempt to read time stamps.

You are pretty active on jumping on the slightly less nooby character, who brought up suspicions on someone who seems happy to hide under you shadow, then you attack someone else who makes a good point about the same person, seems like you are freinding and defending the other scum who's on his way to being lynched.

As for not acting on suspicions, I mainly would prefer NOT to lynch an IC day 1, when I have greater suspicions about someone else, my chat was simply to bring the point in that an IC might be scum.

Sorry for run on sentences, I'll try and spread everything out like you.  If I want to explain my thoughts in a single paragraph, I think I'm allowed to in the English language.

What a plot twist!

No seriously, I didn't expect that.

Until this becomes a "press X to kill scum" game, I don't have mod powers.

Just the usual dose of awesome and asskicking that comes of being Vector.  I.e., what may be effective omnipotence, but not truly absolute power.

You seem to have an awful high opinion of yourself, yet at another point claim that you haven't played in a long time and need to play a BM to practice.  So either keep your self flattering ways out of here, or prove it.  Use some of those awesome player skills and actually ask me some questions, juxtaposed to just pointing out minor flaws in my plan, and claiming I must be a mastermind of decit.

For all the flaws I've had so far, my previous mafia experience involves real-life mafia games, sitting at a table, so much of my tactics comes from watching facial responses, not planning out questions in advance via typing.

so what else can I answer?

[Darvi]

Whiteboard

kilakan - 3 - bdthemag, Vector, UltraValican
UltraValican - 3 - kilakan, breadbocks, Max White
bdthemag - 1 - Jim Groovester
Powder Miner - 1 - Think0028

Not voting: Powder Miner


3 votes to extend, 5 to shorten, no hammer!

[Bdthemag]

Kilakan, Vector is an IC. Its her job to point out flaws in what you say, regardless of how big or small it is.

[Jim Groovester]

You are pretty active on jumping on the slightly less nooby character, who brought up suspicions on someone who seems happy to hide under you shadow, then you attack someone else who makes a good point about the same person, seems like you are freinding and defending the other scum who's on his way to being lynched.

Accusations are great. Evidence is even better. If you can find a few posts of Vector's where it can be clearly seen that this is happening, then you should bring them up. All you need to do is point to them with links or quote the most relevant part. If you do, it will greatly strengthen your case.

If you can't find any posts where this is happening, then you're essentially spouting off hot air, and hot air doesn't really make for a convincing case. Even if you can find posts where this is happening, not everybody will agree with you on it, so it's up to you to explain it better or find something else.

Powder Miner, we haven't heard a lot from either of you. Anything to say?

You should say something. Inactivity is a bad trait to have for new players. It means I can't correct their play.

Kilakan, Vector is an IC. Its her job to point out flaws in what you say, regardless of how big or small it is.

This is true, but if Vector's going to vote him for it, then kilakan gets the chance to defend himself.

Do you have anything more to add? Like, say, your thoughts on recent events? Perhaps a list of suspects?

See my point about inactivity. If you're not going out of your way to make posts then I'm going to have a hard time telling you how to improve.