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[Andir]

probably the last American President to really oppose Israel on anything of import

Maybe I'm missing something, but why does this matter?  I understand they are an "ally" in that part of the woods, but is it a bad thing if the President says, "No, I think you are wrong on this."  We've done it before.  It's not like Israel gets a BFF card and we are not allowed to argue with them.

[Lord Shonus]

Israel has a large lobby, and there's a lot of (largely misplaced) residual institutional guilt over not doing more to prevent the Holocaust in the first place in this country.

[Nikov]

Its also with hindsight that social security is a problem. SS was expected to be solvent indefinately with the birth rate back then. It wasn't until the baby boom generation started delaying having kids and reducing the number of kids that it was ever a problem.

The interstate highway system was an excellent investment and one only the federal government could plan and organize.

The Supreme Court ruled seperate-but-equal was unconstitutional, and sending federal troops to enforce a supreme court ruling a state is defying with militia is perfectly constitutional.

Korea had drawn down after a back-and-forth battle and restoring status quo instead of continuing a trench war in the mountains makes sense. I've read enough first-hand literature about that war to know why it had become so unpopular for a country at war for ten years.

Supporting Egypt was what Eisenhower thought he had to do if he was to simultaneously criticize Soviet oppression in Hungary. In hindsight he considered it a mistake, but you can't know everything.

Staying out of Vietnam by sending advisors and aid instead of ground troops? I'll trust a 5-star general's judgement.

Keeping the civilian economy strong instead of keeping the nation an armed camp producing war materials? The cold war was just starting, the country was in a huge debt it needed to start paying down and the military was shifting to a nuclear-aged arsenal. WW2 mass was no longer of any use in Europe and growing the private sector is what gave us the ultimate edge over the Soviets who couldn't manage to distribute shoes efficiently.

And I don't see how this makes Kael's use of that picture as a portrayal of Republicans any less ironic.

[Andir]

Israel has a large lobby, and there's a lot of (largely misplaced) residual institutional guilt over not doing more to prevent the Holocaust in the first place in this country.

Yeah, I understand some people's thoughts on that, and considering they are the only real democratic country in that region places them in a position where we "have" to support them to prove that ideologically the system is sound.  (I know that sounds asinine, but that's one of the many excuses I've read for the partnership we continue to share.)

But it still doesn't mean we can't disagree.  They continue to sell our military technology to China and other countries against our will and we continue to hand it to them like morons.

[Africa]

It's not like Israel gets a BFF card and we are not allowed to argue with them.

It actually is like that. Sometimes presidents might talk a little tough, but that's as far as it goes.

The interstate highway system was an excellent investment and one only the federal government could plan and organize.

And can you picture today's Republican party responding to it in any other way than with insanity and hysteria?

[KaelGotDwarves]

I like how since I have vocal opinions and am involved and tell people to get involved outside instead of complaining about how nothing changes on the internet that I should apparently stop posting here because I am everything that is wrong with politics and being negative. I thought I was being a pragmatic realist all along! boy was I wrong.



Please, Andir, tell me more on why we should silence opinions we don't agree with.

[nenjin]

Do I need to apologize again to reset the level of discourse in this thread?

[Nikov]

Please, Andir, tell me more on why we should silence opinions we don't agree with.

Why should we listen to opinions we don't agree with? They might have a rational case and we might change our mind.
What if they don't have a rational case? We can explain our reasoning and change their mind.
What if they hear our reasoning but won't change their mind? We'll listen to be polite.
What if they're not polite? We'll stop listening.

Stop calling the other side of the political spectrum idiots and bigots.

[KaelGotDwarves]

Stop calling the other side of the political spectrum idiots and bigots.

I'm not calling the entire spectrum idiots and bigots. Quit getting mad over things that never happened.

Do me a favor though, start calling out the idiots and bigots running abound in the republican party. That's the issue and why I and many others have been steered from independent to moderate liberal democrat.

The republican party has absorbed the Tea Party and their idiocy as a whole instead of pushing them away.

Last time we had this thread Nikov, you said they were not racist, instead of saying that you didn't agree with them, or disowning them. I don't even care for an apology, but I feel as though you should at least disassociate from such elements. I am not tolerant of intolerance, and I feel it is not okay to be tolerant of such.

So I will call out racists, idiots, and bigots as I see them.

[GlyphGryph]

SO HOW ABOUT THEM PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATES.

I dunno myself, I don't like any of them and honestly don't think I'll bother voting this time round. Especially since I don't know where I'll be living come the election.

Obama didn't do as terrible as he could have, I guess, so it would probably go to him over any of the Republicans, but...

Anyone know any good third party/independents running? Not just for president even, but just in general?

[KaelGotDwarves]

Not even touching on viability...

THIRD PARTY and
INDEPENDENT CANDIDATES:

CONSTITUTION PARTY:

Glenn Brown (Nevada) - Retired teacher, Army veteran, party activist & '10 State Sen. candidate.
Darrell Castle (Tennessee) - '08 VP nominee, CP National Vice Chairman, attorney & USMC veteran.
Virgil Goode (Virginia) - Former Congressman, former State Sen., CP National Executive Committee member, attorney & ex-Republican.
Richard Mack (Utah) - Former Graham County (AZ) Sheriff, Author, Libertarian activist & '04 Utah Gov. candidate.
Roy Moore (R-Alabama) - Former State Supreme Court Chief Justice, Vietnam War veteran & '06/'10 Gov. candidate.
Diane Beall Templin (California) - Attorney, anti-gay activist and frequent candidate.

GREEN PARTY:

Stewart Alexander (California) - Community activist, car salesman, '08 Socialist Party VP nominee, and frequent candidate.
Winona LaDuke (Minnesota) - Native American activist, economist, writer and '96/'00 VP nominee.
Cynthia McKinney (California) - Ex-Georgia Congresswoman, Ex-State Rep., College Professor and '08 Nominee.
Kent Mesplay (California) - Biomedical engineer, environmental activist, '04/'08 candidate & '06 US Sen. candidate.

LIBERTARIAN PARTY:

Jim Burns (Nevada) - Ex-State Party Chair and frequent candidate.
Jim Duensing (Nevada) - Radio talk show host, attorney and frequent candidate.
Roger Gary (Texas) - Marketing executive.
R.J. Harris (Oklahoma) - Law Student, Army veteran, Ron Paul campaign activist & '10 US Rep. candidate.
Mike Jingozian (Oregon) - LP National Vice Chair, software company founder and '08 Presidential candidate.
Robert Milnes (New Jersey) - Progressive activist and '08 Presidential candidate.
Carl Person (New York) - Attorney, Army veteran & '06/'10 NY Attorney General candidate.
Wayne Allyn Root (Nevada) - Sports handicapper, author, TV show host, '08 VP nominee and '08 Presidential candidate.
R. Lee Wrights (Texas) - Writer, website publisher and libertarian activist.

PARTY OF SOCIALISM AND LIBERATION:

Gloria LaRiva (California) - Communist political organizer and frequent candidate.

PROHIBITION PARTY:

Lowell "Jack" Fellure (R-West Virginia) - Baptist Minister & frequent candidate.
James Hedges (Pennsylvania) - Ex-Thompson Township Assessor, Prohibition Party activist & retired USMC veteran.

SOCIALIST PARTY USA:

Stewart Alexander (California) - Community activist, car salesman, '08 VP nominee, and frequent candidate.

...
We have a party that wants to bring back Prohibition?

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Somehow, I get the feeling that the Socialism and Liberation Party isn't that interested in liberating anyone.

[Africa]

Wait, one of the Green Party candidates is a car salesman? The hell?

That party is the third party I'd be most likely to vote for. Out of those four, the one that's an "economist" appeals most to me, not that the word alone means a whole lot.

Also, the Constitution Party has an "anti-gay activist." I'd love to see the debates with her.

[Andir]

THIRD PARTY and INDEPENDENT CANDIDATES

Don't forget: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathon_Sharkey 

Also, you were quite vocal in calling people bigots, and idiots.  I'm not even going to pull up a list of the posts because the intelligent reader will be able to enter those terms in the search field above and get a list themselves.  You insinuated everyone from the Republican leaders to the Tea Party members and pretty much anyone that doesn't agree with your position.  (edit: You didn't name names, so we assume you are referring to the entirety.  If you are going to pinpoint individuals, fine.  Just don't generalize.)

Also, the Constitution Party has an "anti-gay activist." I'd love to see the debates with her.

That's not a very Constitutional stance...

[Africa]

What?! Everybody knows the Founding Fathers had a strong Christian faith and prescribed the American system of morality into the Constitution! Just look into the subtext and you can clearly see sodomites condemned by the framers!