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Author Topic: Archer Armor  (Read 10210 times)

Number4

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Re: Archer Armor
« Reply #15 on: June 15, 2011, 11:18:25 pm »

I ran a test and RoF seemed to be the same...sure they may be slower, but crossbowdwarves shouln't run around anyway!
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Montague

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Re: Archer Armor
« Reply #16 on: June 15, 2011, 11:33:35 pm »

I ran a test and RoF seemed to be the same...sure they may be slower, but crossbowdwarves shouln't run around anyway!

Seems to. Movement and attack speed are the same, based on the agility of the dorf/human/ect, modified by the strength/ weight they are carrying. If they walk/run slower, they shoot/attack slower.

This is going to be changed soon, where attack speed and movement speed are separate. So that Cheetahs can run fast but don't  claw their targets in blindingly fast Matrix-like assaults, and agile, quickly moving humans still have to spend a realistic amount of time reloading and aiming their crossbows.

As it stands now, inventory weight can effect speed. However, they can carry reasonably heavy loads without penalty. leather armor, wooden crossbow, metal helm, chainshirt, shield, probably won't hurt movement much. A full set of steel armor with a copper shield and silver crossbow with a stack of 25 iron bolts in a quiver with a backpack of 2 full meals and a silver flask of booze given to a migrant soapmaker will probably slow them down alot, to the point where a less protected dorf will outmatch them in terms of rate of fire.
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Number4

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Re: Archer Armor
« Reply #17 on: June 16, 2011, 12:28:39 am »

Hm, okay. So what would be a good set of archer armor? Only leather? Leather + metal helm? Leather + metal helm and chainshirt? + leggins? + boots?
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evileeyore

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Re: Archer Armor
« Reply #18 on: June 16, 2011, 01:40:59 am »

Hm, okay. So what would be a good set of archer armor? Only leather? Leather + metal helm? Leather + metal helm and chainshirt? + leggins? + boots?
I eventually armor mine the same as I armor the melee guys.  They just get the good stuff later.  Hopefully by then they've trained up Armor Use.
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AutomataKittay

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Re: Archer Armor
« Reply #19 on: June 16, 2011, 02:06:56 am »

Always, always give military boots, you never know when they'll wade through some poisons. And shield's the best way to protect against ranged attacks, they can hold a crossbow and shield while shooting off. I haven't really noticed any advantage to armoring them otherwise, outside of being complete and giving them a bit more edge. Also just in case of melee breaking through the front line or sending them against lazy enemies.
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Naryar

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Re: Archer Armor
« Reply #20 on: June 16, 2011, 04:55:44 am »

Though generally I just make my marksdwarves wear full armor, a copper shield, and a copper crossbow. And then train themin hammerdwarf, fighter, marksdwarf, archer, shield user, armor user and dodger so when they have no more bolts they can wade in melee and bash goblin skulls just as easily as making pincushions out of them.

ETV

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Re: Archer Armor
« Reply #21 on: June 16, 2011, 05:07:17 am »

If you make your archers legendary armour users most of the disadvantage of armour lifts and they will receive no penalty for armour, the only thing that effects the archer through wearing armour is basically the speed at which he takes actions, and these are not limited to firing the crossbow but also just moving around.

Also, there is another aspect of defence to take into consideration when facing bolts or arrows and that is the material vs material, for instance iron bolts may be ineffective against steel, and steel may be ineffective against adamantine, if your bolt tips are not made of a superior substance than the armour I believe it heavily impacts their damage and even causes attacks to glance away/get deflected more.

You can test both of these in arena mode with appropriate materials and skills.
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celem

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Re: Archer Armor
« Reply #22 on: June 16, 2011, 05:37:42 am »


Leather armour is not better than metal armour under any situations, as far as I have seen and the RAWs indicate. Also, even if they were blunt attacks, steel plate would be better than leather or only chain--non-rigid armour gives almost no protection against blunt weapons at all!

My belief is that leather does in fact offer protection to blunt weapons.  You are right that it is inferior to metal when looking at the raws.  However a non-rigid armour offers some protection against a blunt attack.  First the non-rigidity functions as a shock absorber, second when a blunt strikes plate the result is that the plate strikes the wearer (newtonian physics).  Look at medievil armours and most plate sets come complete with extensive leather underneath. 

Whats more I believe this is in the game, if you look at plate dwarves being hit by hammergoblins you wont see the plate mentioned, if you have leather layered below then often the attacks do their damage 'through leather XXX'.  What seems to happen is hammer hits plate, plate hits dwarf through leather (here is the elusive armour vs blunt)

I like to give them metal mail shirts and helms to ward off the odd insta-kill, otherwise they get leather as it lets me reposition them faster.  Once elite or if they never really move from behind fortifications I tend to plate them like the melee.  That is full plate and as much leather as will fit underneath it.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2011, 05:44:06 am by celem »
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kotekzot

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Re: Archer Armor
« Reply #23 on: June 16, 2011, 05:44:39 am »

See this: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=86503.0
So yes, non-rigid armor does provide protection. Then again, ogres are 100 times the volume of dwarves, so you're not going to see results to write home about.
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Nameless Archon

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Re: Archer Armor
« Reply #24 on: June 16, 2011, 10:26:31 am »

Chances are your archers will not be very strong nor will get much armor user skill, since they don't spar. Unless you make the firing range a "danger-room" then you can get them to wear whatever you like with no penalty.
You can get archers to spar, if you're willing to make some hammers to swap them to. They'll also train in a standard barracks, if you make one, and can get some skill from this.

I use plate/metal weapon on full-time military, and leather/bone/whatever weapon for civilians.
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Fredd

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Re: Archer Armor
« Reply #25 on: June 16, 2011, 11:59:35 am »

 Assign a combo Danger room/Training barracks to your archers, along with their archery targets. The danger room will increase armor user, dodge, shield and hammer skills(parrying with their crossbows. Do not need to also equip them with hammers.
 Another benefit is that when they reach really high levels in crossbow, you can cut down their bolt supply. Since they sometimes will have no bolts for target practice(you forgot to make them) they will go to the danger room/barracks, and further improve skills. When they reach the point where their archer skills will not get rusty, just remove the archery targets assigned to them, and equip them with combat bolts.
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Jake

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Re: Archer Armor
« Reply #26 on: June 16, 2011, 02:31:21 pm »

Regarding the question of whether only elite archers can shoot your dwarves through fortifications, the way it worked in 40d was that a fortification added an accuracy penalty to whatever was shooting at the individual behind it. Elite crossbowmen can overcome it more or less consistently, but even a complete novice can get lucky every once in a while.

And what armour you give your crossbow squads depends upon what you intend to use them for. If they're going to keep pace with your melee squads to provide supporting fire then they'll need to be quick on their feet to stay far enough from the line of battle that there's no risk of having to engage the enemy hand-to-hand, and they can run a good deal faster in chainmail or even just leather armour. If you prefer to arm them with a backup weapon and wade in when they run out of bolts, however, platemail is probably the way to go.
If they're going to be stationed on the ramparts and never come into close contact with the enemy at all, it's possible to economise still further on armour. A hit to a limb is rarely fatal unless an artery is hit or it turns septic, so a breastplate, helmet and shield should be plenty.
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Fredd

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Re: Archer Armor
« Reply #27 on: June 16, 2011, 02:54:10 pm »

A leather robe, cloak, and hood to fill out Jakes suggestion
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celem

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Re: Archer Armor
« Reply #28 on: June 16, 2011, 02:58:27 pm »

The line for shooting through fortifications appears to now be hard and fixed.  That is Accomplished Blow/Bow/Crossbow users ignore Fortifications.  Or appear to, I dont know if theres accuracy stuff at work but accomplished is the line at which they start to fire
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mrtspence

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Re: Archer Armor
« Reply #29 on: June 16, 2011, 04:49:33 pm »


Leather armour is not better than metal armour under any situations, as far as I have seen and the RAWs indicate. Also, even if they were blunt attacks, steel plate would be better than leather or only chain--non-rigid armour gives almost no protection against blunt weapons at all!

My belief is that leather does in fact offer protection to blunt weapons.  You are right that it is inferior to metal when looking at the raws.  However a non-rigid armour offers some protection against a blunt attack.  First the non-rigidity functions as a shock absorber, second when a blunt strikes plate the result is that the plate strikes the wearer (newtonian physics).  Look at medievil armours and most plate sets come complete with extensive leather underneath. 

Whats more I believe this is in the game, if you look at plate dwarves being hit by hammergoblins you wont see the plate mentioned, if you have leather layered below then often the attacks do their damage 'through leather XXX'.  What seems to happen is hammer hits plate, plate hits dwarf through leather (here is the elusive armour vs blunt)

I like to give them metal mail shirts and helms to ward off the odd insta-kill, otherwise they get leather as it lets me reposition them faster.  Once elite or if they never really move from behind fortifications I tend to plate them like the melee.  That is full plate and as much leather as will fit underneath it.

I think this too is bogus xD. IRL, a rigid armour doesn't just automatically confer all the force of a blow onto whatever is behind it--it spreads it out just as a more pliable one would. However, said soft armour actually dissipates this force much less effectively than rigid armour--it doesn't absorb nearly as much of the energy, allowing it to be transferred to whatever is behind it. There is a reason nearly every historically effective armour has rigid elements (from plate to modern military bulletproof vests).

In dwarf fortress, I think it just doesn't list all of the parts it performs calculations against, possibly listing just the last result (likely the one closest to the skin--in almost all cases this is the leather XXX you mentioned), as armour will stop most blunt attacks in a situation where a dwarf in a leather robe or whatever would be pummeled into oblivion. This is easily shown in arena mode. It just so happens that hammers, like whips, are usually good enough at piercing armour that even rigid plates aren't totally effective.

That being said, I always equip my dwarves (all military ones) with a full set of plate armour, a mail shirt, and a leather robe/cloak--which adds key protection to exposed digits which may easily become victims of bites or danger-room accidents (which leather can usually protect against adequately).

The drawbacks to heavy armour is that it does slow your dwarves somewhat. The armour user skill rapidly offsets this deficit. 
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