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Poll

Are people capable of starting a Global Nuclear War?

Yes, definitely.
- 84 (53.8%)
Probably.
- 32 (20.5%)
Maybe, maybe not.
- 15 (9.6%)
Probably not.
- 14 (9%)
No, definitely not.
- 6 (3.8%)
Don't know.
- 5 (3.2%)

Total Members Voted: 155


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Author Topic: Are people capable of starting a Global Nuclear War?  (Read 11384 times)

Nikov

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Re: Are people capable of starting a Global Nuclear War?
« Reply #105 on: June 19, 2011, 04:55:06 pm »

It seems as if you are trying to moralize against me over a really trivial distinction.
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Leafsnail

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Re: Are people capable of starting a Global Nuclear War?
« Reply #106 on: June 19, 2011, 04:56:35 pm »

Nope.  It's just a claim that doesn't hold up, nothing more.
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Nikov

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Re: Are people capable of starting a Global Nuclear War?
« Reply #107 on: June 19, 2011, 04:58:57 pm »

Then why do you ask me to explain to the survivors of a war crime my claim if you're not moralizing against me?
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Jackrabbit

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Re: Are people capable of starting a Global Nuclear War?
« Reply #108 on: June 19, 2011, 05:01:25 pm »

Didn't someone get a statue dedicated to them as a result of the bombings? Like, 40 years afterwards, too?
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Leafsnail

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Re: Are people capable of starting a Global Nuclear War?
« Reply #109 on: June 19, 2011, 05:02:45 pm »

To emphasize that there is evidence against the claim?
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Nikov

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Re: Are people capable of starting a Global Nuclear War?
« Reply #110 on: June 19, 2011, 05:10:01 pm »

The claim that what? Japan was mostly firebombed, Germany was mostly high explosive, Hamburg's firestorm was an  unexpected effect and Dresden was a war crime? Stop being pedantic.
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Lord Shonus

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Re: Are people capable of starting a Global Nuclear War?
« Reply #111 on: June 19, 2011, 05:23:58 pm »

Honestly with the way Japanese industry worked in 1940 you had to bomb a city flat to get it to stop making war materials. You'd have little garage shops all over the city turning out individual parts in batches and the factories were really just assembly yards. Bomb an assembly plant and they'd put machine guns together in a movie theatre. This is why we firebombed so much of Japan but used targeted high explosive in Germany.

Shonus, I really don't understand what you're getting at. A missile hits within 150 meters of its aimpoint with ten thousand kilometers range. That's the definition of pinpoint accuracy when you're lofting twenty megaton hydrogen bombs. I never said cities won't be hit as a side effect, but you did say they couldn't aim for anything smaller than a city. Here we have the issue. Lastly, a B-52 dropping its payload from 400 feet with a drag chute is going to be on-the-nose accurate, so the missiles are only half the story.
Yes, 150m is very accurate. Only US and Russian land based bissiles are close to that accurate. Trident SLBMs are that accurate under ideal conditions, but they rely so heavily on GPS to achieve that accuracy that they might as well not have it once boms start going off and screwing up the ionosphere. I never said that the capability did not exist. I said that most weapons lacked it. A B-52 or TU-95 might be able to drop with precision, except for the tiny detail that anything even remotely approaching a pinpoint target would be protected enough that conventional bombers would find it almost impossible to approach without being blown out of the sky. Theat's why the US spent hundreds of billions of dollars on Stealth. The only practical means of attacking a heavily defended target are:

Last-generation ICBMs with pinpoint cabability.
Stealth bombers
Lob-toss gravity bombs
Saturation bombardment with cruise missiles and more primitive ballistic missiles.

Only two and one half of those have the accuracy needed to reliably take out  hard targets like bunkers and silos. The first two I have already discussed. The "half," cruise missiles, suffer both from range problems and the fact that they are still rather vulnerable to fighters and anti-aircraft weaponry, though less so than non-stealth bombers.
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thobal

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Re: Are people capable of starting a Global Nuclear War?
« Reply #112 on: June 19, 2011, 07:07:39 pm »

Wasnt Dresden a huge logistical center?
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Nikov

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Re: Are people capable of starting a Global Nuclear War?
« Reply #113 on: June 20, 2011, 01:50:00 pm »

Something of a rail hub and it made Zeiss optics for scopes and sights, which were superb. Seriously. A Tiger with Zeiss-manufactured gunsights blew up a T-34 at two point five kilometers, which probably still is a world record tank-on-tank kill for non-computerized weapons. We should get Strife to chime in.

Anyway the industrial districts of Dresden were in the suburbs, so bombing the center of the city was... misguided. Quite a few people have tried to bring some RAF generals up for a war crime trial.
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Jackrabbit

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Re: Are people capable of starting a Global Nuclear War?
« Reply #114 on: June 20, 2011, 05:03:31 pm »

I'm fairly sure the guy that took all the blame retired, went into seclusion and got a statue after he died. So you know, politics.
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Lord Shonus

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Re: Are people capable of starting a Global Nuclear War?
« Reply #115 on: June 21, 2011, 06:55:37 am »

Dresden was mainly intended to showcase that the Allies were working together instead of being simply co-belligerents. RAF aircraft destroying a major transportation hub critical to supporting Eastern Front operations  was to give the illusion of extensive AngloAmerican-Soviet coordination, in the belief that Germany would fold faster if it believed that this were the case.
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Montague

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Re: Are people capable of starting a Global Nuclear War?
« Reply #116 on: June 21, 2011, 10:12:58 pm »

Anybody ever the novel "The War after Armageddon?"

Its sort of a far-fetched situation like "1984" but its conveyed in an utterly realistic, visceral manner, like "1984".

Its about nuclear war and religion and its written by a retired Army officer. Its actually one of the only novels I've read more then once. I cannot sell anything to anybody which is why I am not a salesman, but go borrow it from a library or something. I think its a goddamn modern classic.
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thobal

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Re: Are people capable of starting a Global Nuclear War?
« Reply #117 on: July 24, 2011, 01:16:52 pm »

Anybody ever the novel "The War after Armageddon?"

Its sort of a far-fetched situation like "1984" but its conveyed in an utterly realistic, visceral manner, like "1984".

Its about nuclear war and religion and its written by a retired Army officer. Its actually one of the only novels I've read more then once. I cannot sell anything to anybody which is why I am not a salesman, but go borrow it from a library or something. I think its a goddamn modern classic.

Sorry for the necro, but I just noticed that post and decided to try out the novel. Pretty good stuff. Thanks for the recommend. Anyone else know any good near-present nuclear war novels?
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Saint

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Re: Are people capable of starting a Global Nuclear War?
« Reply #118 on: July 24, 2011, 02:21:24 pm »

If I was looking at a bunch of soviet (or Chinese) missiles coming my country's way, I'd damn well retaliate.
Then I present to you the question: Why? Why would you ensure the destruction of others because your destruction is ensured? You might manage to kill the people in China who ordered the strike (although that's acutally less likely, given that they would have a bunker), but you'd certainly kill more people innocent of ordering any nuclear strikes against the USA.
Look at it from their point of view, If we try to destroy them, they're going to send all their missiles our way to destroy us, so why would we launch a missile at them?
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Criptfeind

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Re: Are people capable of starting a Global Nuclear War?
« Reply #119 on: July 24, 2011, 10:26:34 pm »

if I was a ruler of a country, and a nuclear war was about to happen (nukes already coming at my country) I wouldn't launch nukes in retaliation, as what would that achieve? less people&wildlife alive, so more of a chance all of humanity and nature would be destroyed. I don't think everyone would think like this though...

in other words, no, I don't think I could launch nukes and start a war, but there would definately be some willing, hell, even happy to start a nuclear war

Next time you and me are the rulers of two countries in a war I will remember this and nuke the shit out of you for quick and easy victory.
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