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[Bauglir]

Thank you. It's just that I object to it being listed alongside statements that can be objectively examined. It's a reasonable conclusion you can draw from the earlier ones, if they are all correct, but listing it as a premise is just off.

[SalmonGod]

And this is exactly why it's hard for me to believe that emotional reactions don't play into this way more than it should.  I'd like to see this much energy put into criticising things that actually cause problems for people.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

We have plenty of time to adress all the world's problems, I assure you.

[Africa]

This is the internet; people put lots of "energy" into castigating software developers for making a game console-oriented instead of PC-oriented. I don't think internet threads are a good measure of how much energy people focus on any given thing.

[SalmonGod]

Yeah, well... I've got the same treatment from a few people in real life, who felt the need to ask and then detail exactly how disgusted they were

[Mindmaker]

And as for justifying opposition to the practice by saying it tramples on individual rights, then I would support your position when a sizeable portion of subjects to this practice express the feeling that their rights were trampled on.  So far I am aware of one individual who feels as such, and I would actually support that his parents pay for the procedure to reverse the operation if that's what he wants.

So far it is the first case I've ever known where those not subject to a perceived trampling of rights are opposed in greater numbers to the violation than supposed victims.

If I remember correctly, I posted a study of physical, sexual and psychological effects which were polled from circumcised people.
I can round up more evidence, if you're willing to actually adress it, instead of discarding them as biased (your studies are pure gold, of course).

@Leafsnail:
I admire your patience.

[Vector]

I didn't read the thinger the first time because I was short on time and emotional energy, but if you can remind me around where it was or repost it again, if that's easier, I'll give it a look.

I did read Cript's medical publication in its entirety, which mostly lead me to think that we don't know very well either way due to inconclusive information and that we should try to figure out why uncircumcised kids in Denmark have fewer UTI issues than the circumcised kids in the US (who are in turn better off than the uncircumcised kids here).

Hurm.

[Mindmaker]

physical, sexual and psychological consequences

Here you go.

[SalmonGod]

If I remember correctly, I posted a study of physical, sexual and psychological effects which were polled from circumcised people.
I can round up more evidence, if you're willing to actually adress it, instead of discarding them as biased (your studies are pure, gold of course).

...

I haven't discarded any studies, or posted any of my own... 

I will read this one tomorrow

[scriver]

I didn't read the thinger the first time because I was short on time and emotional energy, but if you can remind me around where it was or repost it again, if that's easier, I'll give it a look.

I did read Cript's medical publication in its entirety, which mostly lead me to think that we don't know very well either way due to inconclusive information and that we should try to figure out why uncircumcised kids in Denmark have fewer UTI issues than the circumcised kids in the US (who are in turn better off than the uncircumcised kids here).

Hurm.

Are circumcision more common for religious people over there, to your knowledge, or are it more evenly spread over demographics?

It could also be because them Danes have decent health and sex education. As far as I learnt from the Internet, and I acknowledge that it may be very false, the USA doesn't.

And this is exactly why it's hard for me to believe that emotional reactions don't play into this way more than it should.

Funilly enough, I feel the same way about you/r side.

[Vector]

Are circumcision more common for religious people over there, to your knowledge, or are it more evenly spread over demographics?

It could also be because them Danes have decent health and sex education. As far as I learnt from the Internet, and I acknowledge that it may be very false, the USA doesn't.

No idea.  I don't actually spend much time at all looking at dongs, though this thread may make you think otherwise.  It's definitely not just Jews, in case that's what you're thinking.

And yeah, our health care and sex ed are basically completely broken.  I'm really lucky and have health coverage from my dad's job.  We still basically skip going to the doctor and getting medicine as much as we can, due to expenses.  Oh, and the psychological coverage is made of ass.  I'll just say that.

Anyway, I guess at this point I'm pro-improved healthcare in the US, obviously, and still haven't finished reading Mindmaker's article, so I have to read that before I can say much more.

[scriver]

No idea.  I don't actually spend much time at all looking at dongs, though this thread may make you think otherwise.  It's definitely not just Jews, in case that's what you're thinking.

...You don't have to lock at 'em to have some general knowledge about it.
And no, I was not thinking about jews - more about the large demography of conservative christians you have over there. If it was more common among them than non-religious people. I guess I should do my own investigations, though, rather than trying to pry it out of you just because you are American

[Vector]

...You don't have to lock at 'em to have some general knowledge about it.

Hurm... yeah, if I had more female friends, we'd probably do more dong-talking.

As-is, I hang out with dudes and we talk about video games and math <_< >_>

I guess I should do my own investigations, though, rather than trying to pry it out of you just because you are American

Haha, yeah.  It's really something we never, ever talk about as a normalish subject over here, so far as I know.  Like... ever.  Gossip, maybe.  But I'm not the person to ask =)

[Leafsnail]

Mindmaker's article is quite interesting (I don't really like all the speculation, but the survey is quite insightful).  Definitely puts to bed the notion that circumcision has no potential negative effects... I dunno, the potential negative effects is why I'd want to let my children look at the evidence and decide for themselves once they're old enough.  Foreskin restoration surgery is possible, but as far as I can tell it takes a long time, is expensive (isn't covered by NHS) and apparently won't necessarily look natural (wheras it's perfectly possible to be fully circumcised in adulthood, usually quite cheaply).

@Leafsnail:
I admire your patience.

Something I've noticed about online debates: you can't necessarily change someone's position, but you can at least change the way someone views the opposite side, especially if they regard the opposite side as completely illogical.

Hurm... yeah, if I had more female friends, we'd probably do more dong-talking.

As-is, I hang out with dudes and we talk about video games and math <_< >_>

...You've found guys who talk about videogames and maths but not dongs?!  How??  Well... you could probably ask them, if you really wanted to (about their experiences, not to see them >.>).

[Criptfeind]

I posted something relevant? That does not sound like me... You sure Vector?

Anyway, I wish to crystallize my position a bit more, because like always what I say and what I believe may not have a direct connection. I believe that circumcision at birth is a pretty blatant step on rights. But on the other hand I feel it is so unimportant that I would not advocate something like legislation against it.

Also, something that I believe was missed in SalmonGod response to me:

“And as for justifying opposition to the practice by saying it tramples on individual rights, then I would support your position when a sizeable portion of subjects to this practice express the feeling that their rights were trampled on.  So far I am aware of one individual who feels as such, and I would actually support that his parents pay for the procedure to reverse the operation if that's what he wants.”

It does not matter in the least if only one person in the whole world does not want to be circumcised. If everyone loves smashing their hand with a hammer on Thursday, you don’t force the few people who don’t want to smash their hand on Thursday to smash their hand on Thursday. The thing is, from my point of view, there is not really any major reasons for it. Therefore since it clearly is a invasion of rights, even if just a minor one, then you don’t do it.


Edit: Yes I can confirm. I have posted no study. You must be thinking of some one else Vector.