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[Dwarf]

Uh, you consider actually cutting off part of someone's penis to be a lesser operation than shooting or piercing a hole through the  tongue?

[Leafsnail]

@SalmonGod: But I've mentioned several potential serious side effects - the fact that you personally have not experienced any does not mean they don't exist.  The risk of circumcision is not zero, and therefore it is unfair to dismiss the concerns of those who disagree with you.

Incidentally, circumcision is most definitely surgery as it involves incision, while piercings do not.  Some surgical acts have lower risks than others, though.

What I read is that the previous issue was guys humping beds when they masturbated, which caused phimosis.

Obviously not all phimosis can be cured this way, but apparently switching techniques fixed the issue most of the time.

...Huh.  Well, I'll bear it in mind.

[SalmonGod]

Uh, you consider actually cutting off part of someone's penis to be a lesser operation than shooting or piercing a hole through the  tongue?

Absolutely.

[Leafsnail]

Well, I don't think anyone here is advocating giving tongue piercings to children...?

[SalmonGod]

Well, I don't think anyone here is advocating giving tongue piercings to children...?

Never claimed as much.  I only said that calling it surgery is misleading, as one could point to other procedures that carry as much or greater risk that aren't commonly referred to as surgery.  You could argue technicality, I suppose.  It is technically a sort of surgery, and so is tongue piercing.  So is removal of an ingrown toenail.

But technicality wasn't the purpose of calling it surgery, as the word was specifically used as a measure of inherent risk.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

I would say that the misleading part is your insistance that it is not surgery, in order to present the procedure as appearing more friendly.

[Leafsnail]

...And it does have an inherent risk, which you earlier claimed did not exist.  What's your point?

Incidentally, removal of ingrown toenail is another surgery with downsides and risks... which is why it's generally only performed on people who will receive a clear benefit from it.

[SalmonGod]

I would say that the misleading part is your insistance that it is not surgery, in order to present the procedure as appearing more friendly.

I'm not saying it's not surgery.  In fact, I said that it technically IS surgery.  I was pointing out that using the word "surgery" as synonymous with "risk" is unfair, given that there are other procedures which also technically qualify as surgery and carry greater risk but still less stigmatization (to the point that they are rarely referred to as surgery) because OMG it involves the penis.

[Leafsnail]

I was pointing out that using the word "surgery" as synonymous with "risk" is unfair, given that there are other procedures which also technically qualify as surgery and carry greater risk but still less stigmatization (to the point that they are rarely referred to as surgery) because OMG it involves the penis.

I'm gonna need evidence to support the assertion that, say, tongue piercing carries a greater risk than circumcision - I'd imagine that, under controlled conditions, the risks wouldn't be too different.  As for "OMG it involves the penis"... well, the penis has a lot of blood flowing through it.  An accident can therefore result in a lot more bleeding than an accident in an operation on the toe or ear.

And even if you do get people to stop calling a form of surgery surgery, that doesn't change the fact that there are associated risks.

[Virex]

Omg it involves children would be a pretty decent reason to be careful with these kinds of things, no?

[breadbocks]

He already gave evidence to support the assertion that, say, tongue piercing carries a greater risk than circumcision.

Uh, you consider actually cutting off part of someone's penis to be a lesser operation than shooting or piercing a hole through the  tongue?

Absolutely.

[Leafsnail]

A list of possible problems arising from thing A with no probabalistic values isn't evidence that thing A is riskier than thing B.  It's evidence that thing A is risky, and that's it.

[SalmonGod]

Already posted a link, but here it is again.  Five second look-up.  The tongue also has a lot of blood flowing through it.  A severed tongue or penis can both lead to fatal blood loss.  The major difference is a tongue-piercing carries additional risks besides infection, blood-loss, or undesired cosmetics - for example, I doubt the procedure is as often carried out by as highly trained professionals or in hospital-safe environments, some of those risks never go away, and proper maintenance and prevention is up to the individual for as long as they have the piercing.  Yet this is very rarely referred to as surgery.

And just as a reminder, as memories seem kind of short in this thread over the past couple pages, I am pointing this out only because the word "surgery" was invoked as being synonymous with "risk" and I mean to point out that it is NOT synonymous with "serious risk" to the point that procedures which carry even greater risk than circumcision can be carried out in less safe circumstances and still be considered of such negligible risk that they won't be referred to as surgery.  Thus I believe the word carries less weight than previous attempted characterization.

[Leafsnail]

Tongue piercing isn't referred to as surgery because it isn't surgery, not because it is considered low risk.  Circumcision is referred to as surgery because it is surgery, not because it is considered high risk.

I wasn't saying "Circumcision is surgery therefore it's risky".  I was saying "Circumcision is risky (see possible risks), as is all surgery".  Even if it turned out that circumcision isn't surgery, the statement would just because "Circumcision is risky, and surgery is something else which is also risky".  Basically, the point your arguing is irrelevant.

[scriver]

Salmon, you where the one who brought the whole "surgery" tangent into being to begin with. Leafsnail said that all surgery have risks, to which you answered that circumcision isn't/shouldn't be called surgery because it doesn't have any risks/isn't risky enough. The only one who implied surgery is synonymous with serious risk is you.