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[Flying Dice]

I'm saying American cartoons barely even try to have a narrative that progresses from episode to episode. You can't be faulted for failing when you never tried

There are a lot of successful cartoons and comics that don't have a constant narrative. Goblins is a good comic, but so is XKCD. As for western animations with a primary story arc, Avatar (both The Last Airbender and Legend of Korra) are pretty good at it. A few of the Batman TV series have been pretty coherent. And then you have anime like "Saber Rider and the Star Sheriffs", which is a villain-of-the-day type show.

Consistent narrative doesn't equate to quality, as I just mentioned. What it does equate to is "story". You can't have a good story if you don't have a story to begin with, and you can't have a story if you're running on a villain-of-the-week or disconnected-episodic model.

Incidentally, Avatar is a good example of what we're talking about: the country of origin is largely irrelevant, apart from some differences in values; what matters is the willingness to take a long-term approach and develop a more complex story over time, rather than going for cheap jokes or black-and-white morality battles.

[Heron TSG]

Spongebob episodes are about 12 minutes apiece, with two per airing, last I saw.

Dollar for dollar, anime looks better.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

You can have a multitude of good stories. I enjoyed dozens of episodes of Spongebob.

[Flying Dice]

And that's fine. It's largely a personal choice, which is part of why I find both the rabid fans and the hatedom so silly. It's like raving about how novels are so much better to short stories, or ranting about how people are too obsessed with, say, Russian novels. I personally would (generally) rather read a good novel than a good collection of short stories, but I can and do enjoy both. A crappy novel is worse than a well-written selection of short stories, and a superb novel is better than a bunch of terrible short stories. The medium in which a work is expressed is (largely) irrelevant to the quality of the work.

[Reelya]

Spongebob episodes are about 12 minutes apiece, with two per airing, last I saw.

Lol, seeing as I'm pointing out the excessive cost per episode, pointing out that Spongebob episodes are actually only 12 minutes each seems like a negative. To be generous, I'll assume that the half million is per pair of 12 minute episodes, not per single 12 minuter.

The main point is that American shows should cost a lot less or look a lot better for the money spent, especially as they outsource to many of the same actual animators who make the Japanese stuff. I can only assume a lot of the budget is getting pocketed and not spent on the show.

[Reelya]

[EDIT OOPS]

Actually I'm on a 4G wireless connection and it keeps dropping out, I didn't think the first one went through.

[Max White]

Hit reply instead of edit? Don't worry, I do the same thing.

[King DZA]

Honestly, if the story being told is one I am genuinely captivated by, it could be animated by a bunch of six-year-olds with half a box of crayons for all I care.

Choosing to completely ignore literally thousands of potentially great stories solely because you're not a fan of the art style used to tell them seems pretty silly to me.

[Muz]

Some people see K-ON and assume all anime is bad.
It's kind of like watching Twilight and assuming all fantasy is bad.

Here in Malaysia, anime is seen kinda similar to Western cartoons. I don't know what it's like in the US, but I've got plenty of fangirl friends who cosplay as Ariel, Jasmine, etc.

[Max White]

Well you can tell a good story with even the most basic of tools and styles.

So the problem isn't really anime the artistic style, it is anime the marketing tool. The common tropes and themes used in anime that appear to a specific market. For the most part, this sort of anime is mindless dribble. That doesn't mean anything done in an anime artistic style is mindless dribble, but because of how it is produced, most of it is.

[Vattic]

One of the main reasons Western cartoons have little to no character progression is because the broadcasters want to be able to show them in any order. It's the same with a lot of sitcoms. Programs like King of the Hill managed to smuggle small changes in anyway but still.

When I think of Western cartoons all the fantastic films comes to mind. I personally think they hold up well against anime films on the whole.

[Flying Dice]

There's a certain degree of that in the U.S., but both anime and video game cosplay tends to be more prevalent. Again, though, part of it may well be due to the fact that there really has been a lower quantity of quality animation in the U.S. during the last decade or so. There's been good stuff, but by-and-large the Golden Age is over for now.

Well you can tell a good story with even the most basic of tools and styles.

So the problem isn't really anime the artistic style, it is anime the marketing tool. The common tropes and themes used in anime that appear to a specific market. For the most part, this sort of anime is mindless dribble. That doesn't mean anything done in an anime artistic style is mindless dribble, but because of how it is produced, most of it is.

Yes. Oh, yes. Sturgeon's Revelation is very much in effect re: anime. There are good series, and there are mountains of crap. Part of what produces that "anime/manga = higher quality" attitude in the west is that (especially before widespread scanlation and fansubbing efforts) the only stuff to get licensed in the West was generally good; nobody cared enough to negotiate rights and translate for a shitty stream of predictable, bland mush that few people would watch.

[Patchouli]

One of the main reasons Western cartoons have little to no character progression is because the broadcasters want to be able to show them in any order. It's the same with a lot of sitcoms. Programs like King of the Hill managed to smuggle small changes in anyway but still.

When I think of Western cartoons all the fantastic films comes to mind. I personally think they hold up well against anime films on the whole.

Do you have any examples of Western cartoon movies you enjoyed, barring Disney produced films? It's a bit off topic, but I'd like to be exposed to more.

[Flying Dice]

One of the main reasons Western cartoons have little to no character progression is because the broadcasters want to be able to show them in any order. It's the same with a lot of sitcoms. Programs like King of the Hill managed to smuggle small changes in anyway but still.

When I think of Western cartoons all the fantastic films comes to mind. I personally think they hold up well against anime films on the whole.

Do you have any examples of Western cartoon movies you enjoyed, barring Disney produced films? It's a bit off topic, but I'd like to be exposed to more.

I realize I'm not the one you asked, but...

The Iron Giant was excellent. There's also the Animatrix, though it was more a series of shorts than a feature-length film. I've never seen Titan A.E., but it is supposedly quite good. Osmosis Jones was fun (I don't remember if it was Disney or not). Other than that, you're mostly falling back on Disney/Pixar for Western animated films. One of note that generally gets a bit less attention was the (old) Peter Pan film.

[misko27]

One of the main reasons Western cartoons have little to no character progression is because the broadcasters want to be able to show them in any order. It's the same with a lot of sitcoms. Programs like King of the Hill managed to smuggle small changes in anyway but still.

When I think of Western cartoons all the fantastic films comes to mind. I personally think they hold up well against anime films on the whole.

Do you have any examples of Western cartoon movies you enjoyed, barring Disney produced films? It's a bit off topic, but I'd like to be exposed to more.

I realize I'm not the one you asked, but...

The Iron Giant was excellent. There's also the Animatrix, though it was more a series of shorts than a feature-length film. I've never seen Titan A.E., but it is supposedly quite good. Osmosis Jones was fun (I don't remember if it was Disney or not). Other than that, you're mostly falling back on Disney/Pixar for Western animated films. One of note that generally gets a bit less attention was the (old) Peter Pan film.

I've only heard of and watched the Iron Giant.

[Reelya]

One of the main reasons Western cartoons have little to no character progression is because the broadcasters want to be able to show them in any order. It's the same with a lot of sitcoms. Programs like King of the Hill managed to smuggle small changes in anyway but still.

When I think of Western cartoons all the fantastic films comes to mind. I personally think they hold up well against anime films on the whole.

Do you have any examples of Western cartoon movies you enjoyed, barring Disney produced films? It's a bit off topic, but I'd like to be exposed to more.

I realize I'm not the one you asked, but...

The Iron Giant was excellent. There's also the Animatrix, though it was more a series of shorts than a feature-length film. I've never seen Titan A.E., but it is supposedly quite good. Osmosis Jones was fun (I don't remember if it was Disney or not). Other than that, you're mostly falling back on Disney/Pixar for Western animated films. One of note that generally gets a bit less attention was the (old) Peter Pan film.

Yeah Titan AE is pretty good, though I did cringe at the odd cutesy "Disney Moment", the guy who made it was ex-Disney, but overall it's a decent sci-fi film, with some rather epic shit hitting the fan.