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[scriver]

Unless you are invading France, such as in THIS DAY IN WORLD WAR TWO!

For some reason, that rerail made me very giggly. In a good way.

I think, given the spirit of things, I'll create a thread for the 22nd of June.

You can work out for yourselves why that's an important date, in context.

2 days from my birthday?

[Cheese]

There's a folk song for that day.

[Nikov]

Anyway, war is nothing but a duel on a larger scale. Each combatant seeks to make the other do his will. The fastest way to end a war is to lose, and the fastest way to win a war is to render your opponent unable to resist so that he will do your will rather than suffer a further weakening of his position. Depending upon the political objective being sought by the war, the disposition of your own and the enemy's forces, the national resources at each's disposal, the moral factors in the populations and in the armies, etc, wars are conducted in a myriad of ways. A war of total annihilation is quite different from a border dispute, a nation marching against a longstanding enemy is more vigorous than one trudging to honor a weak unwelcome treaty obligation, and an enemy force controlled and raised by the state behaves quite differently from partisans resisting a foreign occupation when the national leadership signs an instrument of surrender. Thus it is not always, and in fact rarely is, in the favor of an invader to devastate the country he is in unless his political goals call for the destruction as an objective in and of itself. An occupier always prefers an apathetic populace to one in arms against countless injustices by his garrisons.

So Chaos, I must generally disagree with you. May I recommend a little reading on the subject?

[Strife26]

I think that you're skirting the question of rapid dominance, Nikov, with the preconditions that it's a tool for destroying a lesser army with the minimum of friendly casualties and in the minimum of time.


Of course, major points for posting Clausewitz (On War is about a thousand times more relevant than Art of War, if the topic of discussion is anything other than a very very narrow list of things)

[Nikov]

THIS DAY IN WORLD WAR TWO (and I don't normally quote this jackass...)

Spoiler: Godwin's Event Horizon (click to show/hide)

Preparations for the period after 'Barbarossa'

A. After the destruction of the Soviet Armed Forces, Germany and Italy will be military masters of the European Continent—with the temporary exception of the Iberian Peninsula. No serious threat to Europe by land will then remain. The defence of this area, and foreseeable future offensive action, will require considerably smaller military forces than have been needed hitherto.

The main efforts of the armaments industry can be diverted to the Navy and Air Force.

Closer co-operation between Germany and France should and will tie down additional English forces, will eliminate the threat from the rear in the North African theatre of war, will further restrict the movements of the British Fleet in the Western Mediterranean and will protect the south-western flank of the European theatre, including the Atlantic seaboard of North and West Africa, from Anglo-Saxon attack.

In the near future Spain will have to face the question whether she is prepared to co-operate in driving the British from Gibraltar or not.

The possibility of exerting strong pressure on Turkey and Iran improves the prospect of making direct or indirect use of these countries in the struggle against England.

B. This situation, which will be created by the victorious conclusion of the campaign in the East, can confront the Armed Forces with the following strategic tasks for the late autumn of 1941 and the winter of 1941-42:

1. The newly conquered territories in the East must be organised, made secure and, in full co-operation with the Armed Forces, exploited economically. The strength of the security forces required in Russia can only be forecast with certainty at a later date. In all probability, however, about sixty divisions and one Air Fleet will be sufficient, with allied and friendly forces, for our further duties in the East.

2. The struggle against the British positions in the Mediterranean and in Western Asia will be continued by converging attacks launched from Libya through Egypt, from Bulgaria through Turkey, and in certain circumstances also from Transcaucasia through Iran.

(a) In North Africa it is important that Tobruk should be eliminated and conditions thereby established for the continuation of the German-Italian attack on the Suez Canal. This attack should be planned for about November on the understanding that the German Africa Corps will be by then brought to the highest possible efficiency in personnel and equipment and with adequate reserves of all kinds under its own hand (by the conversion of 5th Light Division into a full armoured division), so that it is not necessary to move further large German formations to North Africa. The preparations for the attack require that the tempo of transport be quickened by all means available, including the employment of ports in French North Africa and, when possible, the new sea route from Southern Greece. It will be the duty of the Navy, in co-operation with the Italian Navy, to arrange for the necessary tonnage by chartering French and neutral shipping....

(b) In view of the expected British reinforcement of the Near and Middle East, especially for the defence of the Suez Canal, a German operation from Bulgaria through Turkey will be planned, with the aim of attacking the British position on the Suez Canal from the East also. To this end plans must be made to assemble in Bulgaria as soon as possible sufficient forces to render Turkey politically amenable or to overpower her resistance.

(c) If the collapse of the Soviet Union has created the necessary conditions, preparations will be made for the despatch of a motorised expeditionary force from Transcaucasia against Iraq, in conjunction with operations mentioned in paragraph (b) above.

(d) Exploitation of the Arab Freedom Movement. The situation of the English in the Middle East will be rendered more precarious, in the event of major German operations, if more British forces are tied down at the right moment by civil commotion or revolt. All military, political, and propaganda measures to this end must be closely co-ordinated during the preparatory period. As central agency abroad I nominate Special Staff F, which is to take part in all plans and actions in the Arab area, whose headquarters are to be in the area of the Commander Armed Forces South-east. The most competent available experts and agents will be made available to it....

3. Closing of the Western Entrance to the Mediterranean by the elimination of Gibraltar: Preparations for 'Undertaking Felix', already planned, will be resumed to the fullest extent even during the course of operations in the East. It may be assumed that unoccupied French territory may also be used, if not for German troop movements, then at least for the movement of supplies. The co-operation of French naval and air forces is also within the bounds of possibility. After the capture of Gibraltar only such forces will be moved to Spanish Morocco as are necessary to protect the Straits....

4. In addition to these contemplated operations against the British position in the Mediterranean, the 'Siege of England' must be resumed with the utmost intensity by the Navy and Air Force after the conclusion of the campaign in the East. All weapons and equipment required for this purpose will be given priority in the general armaments programme. At the same time German Air Defences will be strengthened to the maximum. Preparations for the invasion of England will serve the double purpose of tying down English forces at home and of bringing about a final English collapse through a landing in England.

C. The time at which the operations planned in the Mediterranean and the Near East can be undertaken cannot yet be foreseen. The strongest operational effect would be achieved by a simultaneous attack on Gibraltar, Egypt, and Palestine. Whether this will, in fact, be possible depends upon a number of factors which cannot, at the moment, be foreseen, but chiefly on the power of the Air Force to provide the forces necessary for the simultaneous support of these three operations.

D. I request Commanders-in-Chief to begin the planning and organisation of these operations as outlined above and to keep me informed of the results so that I may issue final directives before the campaign in the East is over.

Probably the most hubris ever collected in one letter.

[RedKing]

70 years ago today, Hitler fell prey to the ultimate classic blunder: never match wits with a Sicilian when death is on the line!

Sorry, the *second* most classic blunder: he got involved in a land war in Asia. Operation Barbarossa, which began on June 22, 1941, would ultimately be a strategic failure resulting in the Eastern Front (Ostfront), a meat-grinder which would claim some 5 million Axis soldiers and anywhere from 7 million to 20 million Soviet lives. The six-month operation itself ranks as one of the bloodiest military operations in history, with a combined casualty count somewhere between 1.4 million and 5 million.

[scriver]

Tradition and legend dictates that a great power will do it every 100 year, give or take a few decades. Means that it will happen in the next few tenyears. As of now, it seems most likely to happen to USA, given that it is really the last superpower, but I guess China or India would be good suggestions in the future as well. It will be fun watching it unfold again, at least.

[RedKing]

Umm...last time I checked we were already in TWO land wars in Asia. Granted, they're more counter-insurgencies than stand-up wars, but it's still a lot of the same problems--vast distances, stretched supply lines, rugged terrain, unfriendly local populace, etc.

[scriver]

Uhm.. Yeah. But I meant Russia

edit: that is, I thought you said Russia. But it seems you didn't. My mind plays tricks on me.

[RedKing]

And to be fair, pretty much the entirely of the Eastern Front was in the "European" portion of Russia (west of the Urals). But the same basic problem applied. Huge strategic depth for the defender, terrifyingly long supply lines for the attacker (in part because of a lack of effective ports to bring materiel in through).

[Nikov]

It's Operation Barbarossa Day! Everyone go play Red Orchestra.

[Jackrabbit]

I think, given the spirit of things, I'll create a thread for the 22nd of June.

You can work out for yourselves why that's an important date, in context.

2 days from my birthday?

I missed it, because I had somewhere to be that morning, but what I was going to do was commemorate the original D-Day, as on the 22nd of June, 1898 the US staged their first naval invasion, invading Cuba via Daiquiri Beach. The operation was successful, as there was nobody there after the fleet scared away the defenders. Which was good, because given the way the operation was carried out, even a few hundred defenders stayed, they could have caused "a terrible slaughter".

So yeah. The Marines birthday, I guess? Semper Fi and all that.