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Author Topic: Eastern Religion  (Read 4208 times)

counting

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Eastern Religion
« on: June 05, 2011, 01:43:34 pm »

I am a Zenist. and I don't know how many people here know about eastern religious believe, or philosophy. I want to know what others think about these, and about us.
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freeformschooler

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Re: Eastern Religion
« Reply #1 on: June 05, 2011, 01:52:18 pm »

I read about half of your much longer posts in the religion thread, and lot of other stuff. Would have read more if I had the time. I am interested in eastern religions. I would like to learn about Taoism, Buddhism, and your belief system (Zenism) which I've never heard of before.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2011, 01:54:29 pm by freeformschooler »
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Vector

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Re: Eastern Religion
« Reply #2 on: June 05, 2011, 01:58:33 pm »

I know a little.  I was raised in a household that tries to embrace some parts of (mostly Japanese) Buddhism, particularly meditation practice and mindfulness.  My father consults the I Ching every once in a while, though I don't know if that really counts.  In any case, he used to live in an Ashram, so Eastern religions have flavored our household quite a bit.

For me, I found in the end my periods of melancholy, anger, and suffering were not so unbearable, so I deal with them in my own way.  I try to enjoy them, oddly enough.  They lend color to my life.  I've... also always been very bad at taking other people's advice.  I'm an immodest and disrespectful person, it seems =/

But, I can say that my time spent learning from Buddhist practices was very helpful to me.  I feel like I've managed to at least partially accept the irrationality of the world.  It took a long time, but I feel far better now.


Erm, I guess that's all pretty useless information.  In any case, that's how it is.  I'm hoping to read more Eastern philosophical texts, soon--I've read a couple, but I still feel rather uneducated.
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freeformschooler

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Re: Eastern Religion
« Reply #3 on: June 05, 2011, 02:02:46 pm »

For me, I found in the end my periods of melancholy, anger, and suffering were not so unbearable, so I deal with them in my own way.  I try to enjoy them, oddly enough.  They lend color to my life.  I've... also always been very bad at taking other people's advice.  I'm an immodest and disrespectful person, it seems =/

Sounds exactly like my grandma, five years ago, before she realized she didn't want to put up with people expecting her to be a certain way.

Interestingly, at a church I used to go to, there was this kid (actually 13 years old) who was sort of forced to go due to his parent's disapproval when he didn't go. Turns out the reason he didn't enjoy it was he had come into Buddhism on his own time, out of his own research. I respected him a lot more after that, not only for telling me but also because I can't say I know many thirteen year olds who decide what belief system works best for them.
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Vector

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Re: Eastern Religion
« Reply #4 on: June 05, 2011, 02:09:03 pm »

Sounds exactly like my grandma, five years ago, before she realized she didn't want to put up with people expecting her to be a certain way.

Ah, well... for me, it was that I was trying so hard to suppress my feelings and be calm that I ended up with more and more uncontrollable emotions.  I get along with society well enough, even if I'm a bit of a hermit.  It's more that I no longer attempt to just not be angry, or sad, or frightened.  Nowadays, I allow myself to feel whatever I need to, though I pretty much never spiral off into depression or rage the way I used to.
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counting

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Re: Eastern Religion
« Reply #5 on: June 05, 2011, 02:26:14 pm »

Before the usual TEXT WALL, I wonder all these are social function in religion. And why always Buddhism is consider a religion, not pure philosophy, like the work of Immanuel Kant. (maybe it will be the foundation of future religion, since the forming of one religion requires a lot other components and time)

My question is, other western religions should have the same effects as well. (Maybe on different group of people, and ages, or situations). I want to share that since most people in the far-east do not familiar with western religions so some people DO try to go to church and find peace in western religions. Is it because the nature of characters or anyone can seek any philosophy/religion by their choices, and coexisted? Or we will see more and more merging of religious beliefs in the future, since general populations tend to believe more than 1 religions (folk and mainstream), or is it just in the far-east, not in the western countries?
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Nelson and Winter:
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counting

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Re: Eastern Religion
« Reply #6 on: June 05, 2011, 02:56:35 pm »

... My father consults the I Ching every once in a while, though I don't know if that really counts.  In any case, he used to live in an Ashram, so Eastern religions have flavored our household quite a bit.
...

Erm, I guess that's all pretty useless information.  In any case, that's how it is.  I'm hoping to read more Eastern philosophical texts, soon--I've read a couple, but I still feel rather uneducated.

I Ching starts as a pure "divination" (卜掛) book in ancient time. Maybe a very first of religious related work. But its more of a pure philosophy contents, not specific details. it's about rules and equations. You may picture it as prehistoric physics and computer science book. I am not joking. Each figure in it is a binary code, and a lot talk about how to generate them, and operate them. And NO, modern binary system didn't root from it, not directly as far as I know. But if somehow history is different, and computer science is invented in the east, we sure have a ready to go system to apply to, and many easily understand modern computer science ideology very easily.

It regards the universe as coming from 1 source (the element of folk creation myth, but not the point here, its an assumption, and later gives the religious link to Taoism), then divided (generate) by the existence of dao 道. (later add-on as well, traditionally it doesn't specified, but regard as the basic rule of physics). And the 1 (無極 as later defined by Taoism) become 2 (陰, 陽, westerners familiar them as yin and yang.). Then 2 to 4, 4 to 8. (8 becomes the base of I Ching, ba gua 八卦, the symbols / figures, like a byte in computer), than 64 (the universe CPU is a 6-bit system) and to all the things around us (infinity or not, is more philosophical problem, latter discussed more in religious and philosophy books, its not the point here, I Ching is about operations / rules). And using the comparison of yin and yang to tag elements in the nature, so we can name everything with figures / symbols. (The yin-yin-yin can be a group of things, yang-yin-yang another). Very much like what we do in modern computer game, that using binary code to represent data(things), and discuss which data is operate in the computation machine of universe (physics). A general believe that there is no talking about arithmetic operation in I ching, so it's pure religious assumption, but that's implying western thinking in it. The arithmetic operation, is basically input/output pairs with rules. And certainly I ching has transformations rules. (Who says the universe CPU must use human designed ALU idea? That's the arrogant of human superiority ego). You can called this science if the universe really is a simulated world generated by higher level existence in this way. And why it was regard a key role of religions like Taoism. Even the practical Confucianism regards it the foundational texts of "4 books and 5 classics" (四書五經). And it can definitely still function as divination, by "calculating" (yes we really DO use the same meaning word 算 in Chinese) the future using the rules / operations provided by the books. (Most of them will seem to be ridiculous if you don't believe the universe is working that way) Accurate or not, I can't promise any of it, although the calculation result is clear as day, but since we tag things by guessing, there is room leaving for religions (many tweak the transformation rules and many others through out history, we can't be sure what's the book's original ones, and their original meaning). Effectiveness? probably, since it's been used for so long. Maybe its not the nature laws its meant to describe in the beginning, but the laws of human rules. So if people tend to operate the way it is than its very effective, and many people will tweak it according to the current society. A lot like the Psychohistory math in Isaac Asimov's Foundation universe, if implemented it into perfection in the future with proper observation foundations.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2011, 03:30:51 pm by counting »
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The stark assumption:
Individuals trade with each other only through the intermediation of specialist traders called: shops.
Nelson and Winter:
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Criptfeind

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Re: Eastern Religion
« Reply #7 on: June 05, 2011, 03:35:14 pm »

Alright. Which Eastern Religion do I have to join to be able to set myself on fire with no ill effects?
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Max White

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Re: Eastern Religion
« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2011, 03:44:38 pm »

I am a Zenist. and I don't know how many people here know about eastern religious believe, or philosophy. I want to know what others think about these, and about us.

From the point of view of somebody who in all reality doesn't understand what being a Zenist would constitute at all:
Well from what I can gather, eastern religions have started less wars, and that has to be a plus. I don't know any of the specifics like your views on deities, the afterlife, or creation, but these details have little meaning to me compared to how your beliefs change how you act. If because of your views, you say evolution is a lie and hold anti-gay rights rallies, I don't think very fondly of your faith no matter how flowery your god is. But I have never heard of a Zenist running into a building with a bomb strapped to their chest because divine will demanded it.
So without knowing anything about your faith, I'm willing to say more people should be Zenists.

counting

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Re: Eastern Religion
« Reply #9 on: June 05, 2011, 04:22:19 pm »

Zen 禪, 禪宗, a sect divided from mahayana Buddhism (大乘), and combine some philosophy of Taoist 道家 (not religion), and a little Confucianism view of practical world. And you sure can set yourself on fire if one has a point to make. (Always prefer one than actual you or we or I in Zen, one doesn't infer anything). And enough the terminology. Zen is a way to view the thing as what it is (or is it a thing?). And through meditation, one can find the answer through careful isolating illusion in mind. (The part that is "religious" view, one can say, since its a belief, can not be tested).

Other than that, one should observes more details and keeps working on it every moment, since Zen is in everything. Its like Dao/Tao 道 in Taoism. (Taoism components). And by doing these(practical view of Confucianism) one can achieve enlightenment (Buddhism components). So one who is Zenist can be a bomber if one thinks its the way universe work, like it really is that simple, universe is just a big bomb? One believes that is not a qualified Zenist. (maybe on the way to be better Zenist, if not caught by the police). One can believe gay is wrong, but will this belief valid? Questioning the details about it, the positive and negative side of it. Finding it a big joke? Good laugh. Finding it sad? Cry about it. Finding it injustice? Fight for it. Nothing is what it seen. Everything is just what it seen. Thinking too much make your head hurt? Let's have some tea.


A story about Zen.

-------------------------------------------------------------
Case #10 : Mind Moving

One day Zen Grand master Huineng resided in a room next to a hallway. During the night, the wind was heavy and flags were violently moving.

At the same time, Grand master heard two monks were arguing. One said it’s the flag moving, and another said it’s the wind moving. They both insisted they had the right answers and could not agree with each other.

So Grand master said to them : “Friends, May I suggested to both of you my opinion? Neither the wind nor the flag is moving, but the mind (of the one who is watching) is moving. [1]

[1] It’s a widely known classic Zen story, and almost becoming part of the Chinese culture heritage. Many believe that this is one of the main teachings of Zen - one should not be moved by others, and always look inside one’s mind. Problems may cause by many reasons, but it’s your choice to be bothered by them or not. If one can always stay in the state of Zen, nothing can move one’s mind.
-------------------------------------------------------------
« Last Edit: June 05, 2011, 04:48:06 pm by counting »
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The stark assumption:
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Nelson and Winter:
The challenge to an evolutionary formation is this: it must provide an analysis that at least comes close to matching the power of the neoclassical theory to predict and illuminate the macro-economic patterns of growth

Darkmere

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Re: Eastern Religion
« Reply #10 on: June 05, 2011, 05:03:02 pm »

From my experiences (I gave up classifying my beliefs. I usually say universal Gnostic) the west has, as a culture, no understanding of Zen, Buddhism, Taoism, Confucianism (aside from jokes about jelly beans), Shinto, Jainism, Sikhism... the list goes on.

In my opinion, there's a large difference between eastern thought (which I call philosophy and/or spirituality) and western religion (religion). The primary difference being the three major western religions (Judaism, Islam, Christianity) are external in nature. There is a series of rules that govern what you do, and if you follow every single one (or, for most, the ones that are important/the ones most other people follow) you get a single grand reward when you die, and go to some good place. If you don't, you go to a bad place when you die. Semantics and details aside, that's the core of each.

Not only that, there seems to be a lack of desire among these three to even understand each other, or subgroups of the same label. (What's the difference between Sunni and Shiite? Orthodox and reform? Baptist, Pentecostal, Anglican, Catholic?)

There isn't terribly much room for self-examination here. You either follow rules, or not. However, you mention combinations of eastern and western beliefs. This has happened before (Sufism, Thomas Aquinas, classical Gnosticism and Unitarian Universalism come to mind), but never in a large group of organized people.

I hope I answered at least part of your question, let me know what parts weren't clear.
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Re: Eastern Religion
« Reply #11 on: June 05, 2011, 05:12:44 pm »

I was originally all set to convert to Buddhism, but then I decided it wasn't really for me and I went agnostic instead.

I still need to get around to examining and using things like meditation and mindfulness, though.
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Re: Eastern Religion
« Reply #12 on: June 05, 2011, 05:34:23 pm »

I've studied the earliest philosophical texts for what later came to be known as the Daoist school.

They emphasize questioning your assumptions, your ambitions, and your values, while emphasizing a mindset that constantly seeks to understand one's true internal state and one's environment, in order to respond and adapt accordingly. I think that general application of these principles would be good for anybody.

I wouldn't really call these religious though. The religious aspects of these beliefs come into play when you add in the idea of an existence not only greater and truer than oneself, but beyond comprehension and expression, possessing something mystical and ineffable. I'm not sure it's really necessary to acquire the benefits of the meditations and self-reflection methods, however.
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Re: Eastern Religion
« Reply #13 on: June 05, 2011, 05:44:20 pm »

I meditate semi-regularly, but that's the only eastern ideology I've really picked up.  Nearly everything else would take a great deal of study and learning to really get down, but it's something I wouldn't be averse to.

I think the main difference between Eastern and Western religions is the focus on philosophy - Like Darkmere said, Western philosophy focuses a lot more on the individual "rightness" of an action, while Eastern looks more at self and universe a lot more abstractly.  Neither one is flawed, of course, and they both generally lead to the same thing: Self improvement.  The difference is, where Western culture sees improvement more as a goal with a definitive baseline (Perfection), Eastern culture sees it more as a journey of introspection.
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counting

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Re: Eastern Religion
« Reply #14 on: June 05, 2011, 05:44:36 pm »

From my experiences (I gave up classifying my beliefs. I usually say universal Gnostic) the west has, as a culture, no understanding of Zen, Buddhism, Taoism, Confucianism (aside from jokes about jelly beans), Shinto, Jainism, Sikhism... the list goes on.

In my opinion, there's a large difference between eastern thought (which I call philosophy and/or spirituality) and western religion (religion). The primary difference being the three major western religions (Judaism, Islam, Christianity) are external in nature. There is a series of rules that govern what you do, and if you follow every single one (or, for most, the ones that are important/the ones most other people follow) you get a single grand reward when you die, and go to some good place. If you don't, you go to a bad place when you die. Semantics and details aside, that's the core of each.

Not only that, there seems to be a lack of desire among these three to even understand each other, or subgroups of the same label. (What's the difference between Sunni and Shiite? Orthodox and reform? Baptist, Pentecostal, Anglican, Catholic?)

There isn't terribly much room for self-examination here. You either follow rules, or not. However, you mention combinations of eastern and western beliefs. This has happened before (Sufism, Thomas Aquinas, classical Gnosticism and Unitarian Universalism come to mind), but never in a large group of organized people.

I hope I answered at least part of your question, let me know what parts weren't clear.

Quite informative actually. But I always wonder why some religion spread as it is now. Why isn't there proto-Buddhism in the west, or is it once a group of religions settled, them are stabilized to the general populations till new needs arise. We have all this time in the history to blend in different religions why isn't it a common theme? Also, is there just West vs East major groups? What else could happen as once people always says infinite possibility of believes existed, why we get all these giant groups with narrow believes? Causing by the nature of human mind? or if history is set off in different directions, a religious belief like native American believes in partially animals/natural blend in with spiritual, also can rise up as major religion? just happen they develop in the wrong place, in the wrong time? Or we are destine to have monotheism?

I still need to get around to examining and using things like meditation and mindfulness, though.

About meditation, if I may borrow the words for quote, isn't a practice solely in Buddhism. It may be one of a practice in it, but many religions has same principle about it, with different name. Taoist may called it 修練 (training the inner world? I don't know how to translate that), Some christian may called it getting closer / hearing to God alone (probably one of the function of monastery as I believe, and I believe there is a word for that, or "meditate" the word in English originally just for the use of that in the first place), I believed that Islamic believes have them too, Not mention the Hinduism, its originated believe is what probably invented the form we familiar with itoday. And it's not the only way Buddhism believes to achieve enlightenment. There are many many more. It's Zenist mostly focus on that (not all just, of course), and one major difference separate us from Buddhism. The benefit of it, true of not, are practical one, at least it helps me going to sleep every night. And partially I am not doing it cause believes as well, but my requirement of martial art practice as Taiji. They require some time to get used to the working of Qi in your body, meditation is just happen to be beneficial at both. And you can be a Zenist without the literally meaning of medication. But it helps a lot. Since it better to think alone and be clear about something yourself first.

The Chinese Buddhism view about meditation as 靜觀 (quiet 靜 observed 觀). And the word for mindfulness 念. If you breaks it down, isn't that mysterious at all. Combining 觀 and 念, you got the phrase in Chinese 觀念, as thoughts, thinking. (A great deal of daily use of Chinese phrases are affected by Buddhism concepts, to a point we don't even think about it anymore. They become basic idea). And it just means to observe what's going on in your mind(head). The strictly form of meditation is largely comes from Hinduism. But in Zenist we prefer just the pure meaning about it. If the external practice like how to sit, what position, what kind of standard you need to follow can help, it can help and one can be glad, else you just sit down, find a quiet place, and let go one thought by examine it, put it down, and next, till there is no more there. Nothing mystery about it, but not easily to do that if you are not used to it. Many thoughts fused together, and not known which way to go. So yes, it can be dangerous as one may claim, but if you are already tend to confused yourself everyday, sooner or later you'll end up be crazy someday (maybe when very old and not thinking clearly), and you just put that contradicting thoughts and outcome in the heads till its too late.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2011, 06:26:46 pm by counting »
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Currency is not excessive, but a necessity.
The stark assumption:
Individuals trade with each other only through the intermediation of specialist traders called: shops.
Nelson and Winter:
The challenge to an evolutionary formation is this: it must provide an analysis that at least comes close to matching the power of the neoclassical theory to predict and illuminate the macro-economic patterns of growth
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