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[RadGH]

I'm trying to understand the armor system. The wiki's examples are very poorly written, and the examples seem to assume you know how the calculation works.

Especially this line.

If the item to be add is a [LAYER:COVER] item, add the total item size on the body part, if this sum is less than or equal to the item's permit value then evaluate as true.

The quote from above (with very poor sentence structure) seems like it states:
 
"if the total size equipped on a body part plus the to-be-equipped item exceeds the to-be-equipped item's permit, then the item cannot be equipped".

I assume this uses a procedural equip method, by equipping UNDER, ARMOR, OVER, COVER in order. If thats the case, I suspect that each body part's size and permit limit is individual, if not I do not see any information about the procedure for equipping items based on body part.

If this is correct, it would mean you can equip 3 Shirts (10 size, 50 permit), and can equip a breastplate (20 size, 50 permit) to end up at exactly 50 total size. But you can still equip a cape (size 10, 300 permit) because the size of 60 is not exceeded by the permit of 300. Although now the breastplate and shirts limit is exceeded, but because they are already equipped it does not matter.

This seems like the most logical explanation.

I would like to clarify this on the wiki post because of the issue I had, but I would like to know if I understand the system correctly. So, do I understand the system correctly?

EDIT: Another example from the wiki which confuses me...

You start off with a steel breastplate. This has a size of 20 and a permit of 50. It is also shaped, so you can't add any other shaped items; no more breastplates and no leather armor.
Now you want to add mail shirts. Each one has a permit of 50 and a size of 15. You can add three of these if you want. It checks the size against each of the armour pieces permit + size (or rather, the permit value ignoring that items size in the calculation), like so;
Against each of the mail shirts, you have 2 x 15 = 30 total size in mail shirts, + 20 from the breastplate, matching the 50 permit.
Against the breastplate you have 3 x 15 = 45 < 50, fine.

So you have a breastplate (20 / 50), and equip two mail shirts (15 / 50) for a total of 50, matching the 50 permit.

But the example above then states you can wear 3 mail shirts for 45 of 50. I assume this will only work if you do not have the breastplate equipped (The example is unclear, again), because then it should read 65 of 50, which is too much.

EDIT #2: According to the wiki, a helm has a size of 30 and a permit of 20. You would not be able to equip a helm if this is correct. What am I missing?!

[zair]

that all makes sense dude. way more than the wiki actually. you just have to realize that stuff doesnt count its own mass under the limit of stuff it can go over.

[kotekzot]

Where do these values come from, though? I tried to equip a (personally crafted) leather armor on my kobold adventurer, but couldn't, even though he was naked. He could wear clocks and such, however.

[Greiger]

Armor crafted via custom reactions is always human sized iirc.  That might be why yer adventurer couldn't wear it.

P.S.  Those numbers for size and permit come from the raws.  And are independent of the size of a creature.  A helm crafted by a dwarf mode kobold would only be equippable by a kobold (or creature the same general size of a kobold) because the game also stores a 'total size' variable when it's created (custom reactions don't run the code to find the creating race's size and thus default to human size)  If the race trying to wear the item's creature size, doesn't come close to the item's internal total size variable, they can't wear it regardless, and the item would display as small or large from the view of that creature.  But the item's 'how many can be equipped' size and permitted size are still what they say they are in the raws.

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And while I'm not entirely sure how all the equipping of armor works, as zair said, it only checks the permitted size when putting something new on. 

For the helmet example you used.  As long as your current size numbers are below 20 you can wear the helmet.  It does not add the helmet it-self's number to that until after it is equipped.  Allowing the number to actually go above the max easily.  But after that helmet is equipped, nothing additional could be added to the head, because the total size is over the permitted size.

It is rather complicated. With the results of many different experiments being condensed into one document.  And it's not exactly an easy thing to explain either.


If I recall back in the last 'word of god' on the matter back in 40d it took Toady 3 paragraphs to explain how UBSTEP worked.

[kotekzot]

No, human-sized armor shows up as "large" when playing a kobold, mine didn't. I also equipped a crafted cloak just fine, which likely means all crafted armor is properly sized.

[Greiger]

Perhaps that has been fixed then. My bad.

It seems odd though that you wouldn't be able to wear the leather armor while naked.  And that seemed to be the only logical possibility.  There is nothing I know of that should prevent it then.

[kotekzot]

My only idea is that allowed armor size is related to creature size. Maybe I'll try playing as a sasquatch.

[Corneria]

Where do these values come from, though? I tried to equip a (personally crafted) leather armor on my kobold adventurer, but couldn't, even though he was naked. He could wear clocks and such, however.

Kobold adventurer, master of time

[RadGH]

you just have to realize that stuff doesnt count its own mass under the limit of stuff it can go over.

For the helmet example you used.  As long as your current size numbers are below 20 you can wear the helmet.  It does not add the helmet it-self's number to that until after it is equipped.  Allowing the number to actually go above the max easily.  But after that helmet is equipped, nothing additional could be added to the head, because the total size is over the permitted size.

Okay, this must be that piece of information I was missing from my logic. I did try the arena to test out some of these ideas and I kept having dwarves wear one extra piece of armor, and I couldn't understand why. But now it makes sense.

Although I do not have the slightest idea why kotek wasn't able to equip that leather armor on his kobold adventurer. Are there creature restrictions? I noticed I was able to spawn a dragon with the same items as my dwarves spawned with in the arena, but the dragon wasn't able to equip as many items as the dwarves were. It probably dropped it's boots and gloves because dragons do not have normal hands/feet. But I didn't take note of what he did and did not wear, only that he did drop many items but still wore several others.

Maybe kobolds have a conflict with leather armor, like how the dragon couldn't wear many random pieces of armor. I wouldn't know, though. I don't look at the raws.

[kotekzot]

What sort of armor can a dragon wear?

[Greiger]

From my understanding dragons can't wear gloves like gauntlets and mittens (no hands).  I've seen them wear breastplates and helms in arena mode, but arena mode is sometimes pretty wonky with the armor system anyway.

[RadGH]

If you want to find that out, just spawn a dragon with a bunch of armor and inspect his inventory to see what he didn't drop.

On a note related to wearing equipment... Are any weapons wielded as two-handed? Are there any penalties to attacks for wearing a shield?

And can you wear a shield with a crossbow? It doesn't seem like you would be able to, but I don't see any information against it.

[Greiger]

Yes there are two handed weapons.  If you ever see a dwarf wielding a weapon and instead of it saying left or right hand it says multigrasp they are using the weapon two handed.

And shields don't give any penalties by themselves.  But if you try to wear a shield while using any two handed weapon (and you aren't large enough to wield the weapon properly in one hand, which isn't easy to tell outside of adventure mode) you get penalties to attack strength and accuracy from using the weapon improperly.

Crossbows are a bit odd, there hasn't been much or any testing with them.  You can definitely wear a shield with them.  That much is certain.

But in the raws they have [TWO_HANDED:0] which means that the weapon should always require two hands to not get penalties.  It definitely has an effect on their capabilities as a melee weapon when you only have one hand free to use it.  But folks aren't quite sure if it reduces their capability as a ranged weapon.

[RadGH]

Thanks, that's good enough for me. I remember reading about multigrasp before, so I'll look into that.

I suppose equipping my marksdwarves with a shield is rather pointless if there is a melee squad to stand between them and the opponent. Of course, once that melee squad is dead it's a different story.

[Akura]

Where do these values come from, though? I tried to equip a (personally crafted) leather armor on my kobold adventurer, but couldn't, even though he was naked. He could wear clocks and such, however.

Kobold adventurer, master of time

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