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Author Topic: Chill and Relaxed Progressive Irritation and Annoyance Thread  (Read 880512 times)

scriver

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Re: Chill and Relaxed Progressive Irritation and Annoyance Thread
« Reply #12585 on: February 29, 2012, 08:46:04 am »

Remember that little discussion we had a while back about boycotting corrupt businesses, and how difficult a proposition that actually is?

Was just linked to a good example of that.  Here's a list of food companies owned by Monsanto.  Good luck.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Pssh, easy. The only thing I buy from that list is Lipton, and only for guests, as I don't drink tea myself. Provided that it's the tea-selling company we're talking about.

I would never buy any Uncle Ben's either, but that's because they dub their awful commercials. Companies that dub their commercials in Sweden get universally loathed. Strangely, only hair/shower/make-up companies seem to have caught on.

Too bad the list was fake, though. It ruined the whole awful supposed-to-be-joke I wanted to get going.
addit: Because, you know, I'm Swedish, and we have different companies here.
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Caz

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Re: Chill and Relaxed Progressive Irritation and Annoyance Thread
« Reply #12586 on: February 29, 2012, 09:01:24 am »

So this thread is just for arguing on every subject? I read the first post but I'm still not sure.  ???
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Ogdibus

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Re: Chill and Relaxed Progressive Irritation and Annoyance Thread
« Reply #12587 on: February 29, 2012, 09:01:52 am »

I never thought I'd post something relevant to this thread on this topic. I've been ranting a few other places, and I think it deserves some scrutiny from non-fans, as talking to them tends to devolve into talking about the fandom itself rather than the issue. Also do note that I'd be posting this here if something similar happened in anything else I was interested in.


The problem: Hasbro censored a handicapped pony in MLP:FiM. Unfortunate implications, ahoy.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

This sort of thing bugs me a lot too.  It's effectively trading an active form of persecution for passive one.  It's really tough to deal with, too.  Many people disagree on how to deal with things like this, but it's too taboo for conversation, so the difficulties are never resolved.  It just get's ignored while the problem worsens.

This is particularly hard on people who live with such issues.  They might get a few government services if they are lucky, but it won't make up for the damage caused by being shunned by society, or being encouraged to shun loved ones.

So you think it is better for handicapped people to be negatively portrayed by the media than not at all? Because make no mistake, this was a negative portrayal. I mean for gods sake, the character literally had the most stereotypical, offensive voice that someone making fun of the handicapped would use, and was called fucking Derpy

Oops...  I didn't mean to agree with the way that the character was portrayed.  To be honest, I don't know if a negative portrayal is better or worse than none.  From my perspective as a member of more than one negatively portrayed minority, the direct effect on me varies, depending on the character.  When I consider how it affects the way that others perceive me, the effects get more difficult to evaluate.  I do prefer to fight an enemy that I know, to an enemy that I don't know, though.  The level of hostilty resulting from the portrayal is very relevant to whether it makes things better or worse, as well as the capacity for the party being negatively portrayed to fight back. 

In this particular case, putting some care into the portrayal of the character would have saved everyone a lot of grief.  It doesn't seem that any harm was intended, but it is the absence of accurate portrayals of such characters that leads to a stereotype default.  Silence won't change an existing stereotype, but correcting mistakes can.
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justinlee999

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Re: Chill and Relaxed Progressive Irritation and Annoyance Thread
« Reply #12588 on: February 29, 2012, 09:07:26 am »

So this thread is just for arguing on every subject? I read the first post but I'm still not sure.  ???
It's about progressives raging about stuff against progressivism.
« Last Edit: February 29, 2012, 09:33:33 am by justinlee999 »
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G-Flex

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Re: Chill and Relaxed Progressive Irritation and Annoyance Thread
« Reply #12589 on: February 29, 2012, 09:17:11 am »

Because, you know, I'm Swedish, and we have different companies here.

You can't always assume something like this. Granted, I can't assume either way myself, but: The brands on a package are often related to companies you wouldn't guess they're related to. Many large corporations own a slew of brand names, and a lot of those are likely regionally specific, and sometimes it's hard to notice that they belong to a larger corporation to begin with.
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penguinofhonor

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Re: Chill and Relaxed Progressive Irritation and Annoyance Thread
« Reply #12590 on: February 29, 2012, 09:34:31 am »

The problem: Hasbro censored a handicapped pony in MLP:FiM. Unfortunate implications, ahoy.

Hey, kaiyjuu! Read up on this.

The one point I feel is important is that Rainbow Dash calls her Derpy originally, but that might not be apparent to non-brony viewers. They might think she's calling her "derpy" as an insult. Which would significantly worsen the scene and definitely make it appear to be about ridiculing a mentally handicapped person. I wouldn't approve of that on the show.

Tell me, if a 6 year old handicapped girl saw the original scene, do you think they'd interpret Derpy as making fun of them, or would they interpret her as a funny character to relate to?

People keep saying stuff like this. I don't like this at all. In the dozens of times I've seen this brought up, I've only seen one person actually mention someone they know with a disability, and that kid had an eye problem.

I don't like people going "Well, [marginalized group] would totally like this depiction of them" especially when the depiction has some problematic characteristics. It just sounds like they're using the marginalized people to defend a character they like personally, and don't actually care what the marginalized people think.
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G-Flex

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Re: Chill and Relaxed Progressive Irritation and Annoyance Thread
« Reply #12591 on: February 29, 2012, 09:39:24 am »

They might think she's calling her "derpy" as an insult. Which would significantly worsen the scene and definitely make it appear to be about ridiculing a mentally handicapped person. I wouldn't approve of that on the show.

Let's break down some facts here. If "derpy" would be an insult, then it's still insulting for it to be her name. I don't know what's so hard about the fact that explicitly naming a character an insulting word is, in fact, insulting, and in pretty much exactly the same way.

"She's not calling her an insulting word, she's just calling her by her name, which is also the insulting word by design" is hardly a defense.

Quote
People keep saying stuff like this. I don't like this at all. In the dozens of times I've seen this brought up, I've only seen one person actually mention someone they know with a disability, and that kid had an eye problem.

I don't like people going "Well, [marginalized group] would totally like this depiction of them" especially when the depiction has some problematic characteristics. It just sounds like they're using the marginalized people to defend a character they like personally, and don't actually care what the marginalized people think.

Or what people who work with them think.
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Re: Chill and Relaxed Progressive Irritation and Annoyance Thread
« Reply #12592 on: February 29, 2012, 09:48:46 am »

People keep saying stuff like this. I don't like this at all. In the dozens of times I've seen this brought up, I've only seen one person actually mention someone they know with a disability, and that kid had an eye problem.

I don't like people going "Well, [marginalized group] would totally like this depiction of them" especially when the depiction has some problematic characteristics. It just sounds like they're using the marginalized people to defend a character they like personally, and don't actually care what the marginalized people think.
Well, I'm not mentally handicapped, so I can't tell you for sure what any one person who is would take the the stereotype of not being able to align their eyes, and I'm not everybody on earth with shit for eyes, so I can't speak for everybody, but I am blind in one eye, and it does tend to wander on it's own accord.

Do I take offence when people stereotype poor eyesight with having a mental disability. Na, not really.
So if anybody is worried that people with lazy eyes or what ever would take offence on their own behalf, I can tell you that not all of them would.

Ogdibus

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Re: Chill and Relaxed Progressive Irritation and Annoyance Thread
« Reply #12593 on: February 29, 2012, 10:05:02 am »

The problem: Hasbro censored a handicapped pony in MLP:FiM. Unfortunate implications, ahoy.

Hey, kaiyjuu! Read up on this.

The one point I feel is important is that Rainbow Dash calls her Derpy originally, but that might not be apparent to non-brony viewers. They might think she's calling her "derpy" as an insult. Which would significantly worsen the scene and definitely make it appear to be about ridiculing a mentally handicapped person. I wouldn't approve of that on the show.

Tell me, if a 6 year old handicapped girl saw the original scene, do you think they'd interpret Derpy as making fun of them, or would they interpret her as a funny character to relate to?

People keep saying stuff like this. I don't like this at all. In the dozens of times I've seen this brought up, I've only seen one person actually mention someone they know with a disability, and that kid had an eye problem.

I don't like people going "Well, [marginalized group] would totally like this depiction of them" especially when the depiction has some problematic characteristics. It just sounds like they're using the marginalized people to defend a character they like personally, and don't actually care what the marginalized people think.

That was kind of a relief to read.

Sometimes people will identify with a negatively portrayed character.  In this case, I can see resentment developing for the other characters, based on their interactions, though this is speculation.  I haven't seen the content in question.
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Andir

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Re: Chill and Relaxed Progressive Irritation and Annoyance Thread
« Reply #12594 on: February 29, 2012, 10:17:46 am »

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Are you sure that list is accurate? Kraft Foods, for example, is an independent publicly-traded corporation.

You're right.  That list is garbage.  From a few minutes of searching, it looks like it originates from abovetopsecret.com... and who knows where they got it from.

This looks like a better list of brands owned by Monsanto.

Not quite sure yet, but it looks like Monsanto and Kraft have been part of the same corporate entity in the past, but not for a long time, which might be partially responsible for the confusion.

Kraft's list of owned brands is actually more impressive, though it probably has less significance.  Monsanto has its hands in how most of the ingredients in our foods are grown.  Kraft is more involved in the actual processing and final sale of those foods.
The first list looks like any company/brand that uses HFCS for primary ingredients and maybe that's where they are coming from.  It may be Monsanto provided/contracted.  (But I guess you kind of mention that in your last paragraph)
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Re: Chill and Relaxed Progressive Irritation and Annoyance Thread
« Reply #12595 on: February 29, 2012, 10:22:40 am »

So, should Him retroactively be deleted from Powerpuff Girls episodes because it's a negative portrayal of transsexual people?
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G-Flex

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Re: Chill and Relaxed Progressive Irritation and Annoyance Thread
« Reply #12596 on: February 29, 2012, 10:24:11 am »

So, should Him retroactively be deleted from Powerpuff Girls episodes because it's a negative portrayal of transsexual people?

Why is it that people who argue against things like this always have to throw in strange analogies instead of actually addressing the points mentioned?

To answer your question: I don't know. I don't know anything about Powerpuff Girls or about that character. It's a completely irrelevant question regarding an unrelated situation. I don't know how the two relate, whether they are analogous situations, or anything like that, and there's no point in complicating discussion by relating the "Derpy" situation to some other, different situation in another show. If you have an actual point to make, please make it instead of doing whatever it is you're doing.
« Last Edit: February 29, 2012, 10:26:43 am by G-Flex »
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Re: Chill and Relaxed Progressive Irritation and Annoyance Thread
« Reply #12597 on: February 29, 2012, 10:25:47 am »

So, should Him retroactively be deleted from Powerpuff Girls episodes because it's a negative portrayal of transsexual people?
....I'd never thought of Him as transsexual. More of a andryogenous/hermaphroditic demon. Which admittedly, is a bit bold for a kids' cartoon.
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Re: Chill and Relaxed Progressive Irritation and Annoyance Thread
« Reply #12598 on: February 29, 2012, 10:33:25 am »

Rewatching the cartoon now, Him is quite clearly transsexual. Also, an incarnation of pure evil. So yeah.
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G-Flex

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Re: Chill and Relaxed Progressive Irritation and Annoyance Thread
« Reply #12599 on: February 29, 2012, 10:43:51 am »

I recommend we not get distracted by talking about a completely different character from a completely different show with potentially different implications. It's not relevant, and it only complicates discussion in a way that isn't productive. That is, if the only reason it's being mentioned is as a rhetorical analogy to the "Derpy" situation. If people want to discuss it as a separate scenario, which it is, that's another thing entirely.
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