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[kaijyuu]

Also, like has been said so many times before, we understand Max was ignorant of what he was saying and nobody here was offended by it. We were just trying to get him to understand that what he said was offensive.

Contradiction.


Words are not offensive if, through context and audience, no one is offended. You can't have a crime without a victim.

I'll accept "insensitive" or somesuch, though. Negligence when it comes to courtesy; there may have been someone here reasonably offended by it (though IMO it'd still be a bit of a stretch).

[scriver]

No, there is no contradiction. "Nigger" isn't any less offensive a term just because I'm not personally offended by it.

[kaijyuu]

Yet you typed it just there.

Are you being offensive?



Context and audience, dude.

[scriver]

Saying "nigger and gypsie are offensive words, don't use them" is not offensive, no. Using them about people is. Ethnic stereotyping is also offensive, regardless of whether my ethnicity is the target (that is, whether I'm personally offended or not), and that is what people reacted to.

[Max White]

Is there a definition of the word nigger that does not relate to black people?

[Heron TSG]

...Did we just spend all this time talking about Max White saying that Vector was going to become as the Gypsies, and travel?

1. Max obviously wasn't being malicious. I read it as a joke, actually.

2. Gypsies are known for traveling. Third definition.

3. The word Gypsy itself might carry a negative connotation in some circumstances, but not really here. It originally stemmed from (spelling may not be right) Aegyptioi, referring to Egyptian exiles in the Balkan peninsula who were, according to some narratives, exiled for harboring baby Jeegus. That's offensive to some people, but considering the fact that its usage is as (if not more) common than Romani in American English, there was no racism implicit. Hell, the Hunchback originally used 'egyptiens', a French word that refers to the etymology much more closely. That one might be racist. Max was not saying that Vector will be exiled from Egypt for harboring the children of a god.

Vandal in its current form is a bit racist. The 'N' word is definitely racist. Gypsy as a term is not inherently racist. Why? Gypsies/Romani in the Americas also use it to describe themselves! 'Gyp' as a verb is absolutely racist. Saying that someone might imitate the standard Romani culture is not inherently racist. I'm pretty bad at racism, but have some examples.

Racist: "Darn you, how about you go off and do [negative thing] just like them darn Gypsies!"
Not racist: "We could go around the country in a caravan like Gypsies do."

Is there anything I'm missing, there?

[kaenneth]

Well, there is the whole "Positive Stereotypes are bad too" thing; like Asians being good at math, black men being well endowed, and Peruvians with laser beam eyes.

Personally, I think all pure races suck, I myself have a recessive genetic auto-immune disorder; black people may have the recessive sickle-cell gene; but the child of a white and black can't have either condition.

Pure-bred dogs generally live shorter lives, and are more prone to disease, and I think the same applies to humans; people that think inter-racial marriage is wrong are just endorsing a wider form of inbreeding.

The future of humanity is hopefully a blend of all races, and all this bullshit will only be known to historians.

[Euld]

... For a long while, I always thought Gypsies were traveling entertainers, and that was it.  Sort of like a circus, but with a more mysterious flavor with fortune telling and dancing or something.

[kaenneth]

I also used to think that my Kindergarten teacher Ms Rogers, must be Mr Rogers wife.

[Vector]

Hunchback also used the words "bohemienne," "zingara," and "gitan," and was written in the 1830s by a white dude about 1480s France.  His architectural research was impeccable, but his racism/sexism stuff was good for the time at best.

Uh, what I'm trying to say is that the words of almost 200 years ago have already changed meaning, quite a bit.


Anyway, here's an article with a lot of people sounding in: "Gypsy" as a first name

Specifically, there is a wide, wide number of people writing from 2010 who feel that the word itself is a racial slur.  Interesting...  I'd actually never heard it used that way at all, so I guess I've learned something new.

[Frumple]

I also used to think that my Kindergarten teacher Ms Rogers, must be Mr Rogers wife.

Hrm. She was one of the rare ones who kept her maiden name? Or just unmarried?

[G-Flex]

Gypsy as a term is not inherently racist. Why? Gypsies/Romani in the Americas also use it to describe themselves!

This was never the issue. People here have to stop assuming that certain things are the contentious issue when they never were.

Even if they refer to themselves as "gypsies", that does not mean it's okay to use the word "gypsy" to refer to a stereotype of them, or to say that engaging in one particular lifestyle choice they are culturally known for means you can "become a gypsy".

Racist: "Darn you, how about you go off and do [negative thing] just like them darn Gypsies!"
Not racist: "We could go around the country in a caravan like Gypsies do."

Except he didn't say "travel like Gypsies do". He said "become a Gypsy". There is a slight difference there, in that the latter pretends that Gypsies are nothing but traveling people, nothing outside that one stereotyped trait, and he's basically made that clear himself. There is a difference between "do <thing> like <ethnic/cultural group known for that thing> do" and "become a <ethnic/cultural group defined solely as a specific thing the actual group is known for>". It's pigeonholing the group as nothing but "travelers", showcasing pretty obvious ignorance that they're an actual people with more to them than that. This has been made clear by the fact that 1) he's stated many times he did mean it to refer to a stereotyped trait they have and not the people as a whole, and 2) he seemed totally unaware the word even referred to an ethnic group in the first place. Malice or not, ignorance toward the cultural group you're accidentally talking about (and stereotyping a bit) is bad in itself, and considering how much racism and outright institutionalized prejudice goes on against the Romani people, you'd think he would at least think twice now about using the word like that on an international forum, but he's specifically stated he would continue to use it that way. That's just plain arrogant and insensitive, and willfully ignorant. When it comes to matters of whether or not you're being offensive about a group of extremely marginalized and hated people, I believe that one should err on the side of caution rather than require the opposing side to prove themselves 105% correct and you 105% wrong, to your satisfaction, before declining to use the potentially offensive language.

Specifically, there is a wide, wide number of people writing from 2010 who feel that the word itself is a racial slur.  Interesting...  I'd actually never heard it used that way at all, so I guess I've learned something new.

I'm surprised that surprised you, actually, considering how "gypsy" is an exonym to begin with, the groups using that exonym generally have not been... historically kind to the romani people, and they're generally portrayed in a very negative and slurred manner in popular culture, and when they are, they tend to be referred to as "gypsies" (anyone who would actually refer to them as "romani" would probably be too knowledgeable to be buying into stereotypes in the first place, at least in the US).

[Max White]

Except he didn't say "travel like Gypsies do". He said "become a Gypsy".

So you don't understand a metaphor at all?

[G-Flex]

... You weren't using it as a metaphor. You literally didn't even know the word referred to an ethnicity. You have specifically mentioned that you only thought it meant "traveling person". You were trying to use the term literally, using the only definition you knew of the word. Don't pretend you were trying to use it metaphorically, because you weren't even aware this was possible at the time.

[Max White]

I wasn't referring to an ethnicity, I was referring to a traveller, as has clearly been demonstrated to be a proper use of the term by several dictionaries, wiki pages, and examples.
What, did you think the orb of +8 INT was serious did you?