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[MonkeyHead]

*continues "joke" with use of "goths" in anything other than its proper Visigoth/Ostrogoth Goethe Germanic context...*

Or to "Welch" on a deal or bet. Curse you Anglo-Saxons, comparing my people to the untrustworthy.

[Leafsnail]

We also have a train wreck of a TV show called "My Big Fat Gypsy Wedding"

Arrrggghhh don't remind me.  It's pretty much straight-up racism.  I mean I guess Channel 4 do the same horrible thing with plenty of working class white people but that doesn't make it any better.

[G-Flex]

I'm moderately annoyed at the use of the racist stereotype word 'Vandal' to describe property damage.

Sadly, it's even used in the text of laws, news reports, etc.

*continues "joke" with use of "goths" in anything other than its proper Visigoth/Ostrogoth Goethe Germanic context...*

Or to "Welch" on a deal or bet. Curse you Anglo-Saxons, comparing my people to the untrustworthy.

Let's act like the Romani people aren't an extant people and don't actually face serious prejudice, and make ridiculous jokes about it. That sounds like a great way to defuse the situation.

[Virex]

Or to "Welch" on a deal or bet. Curse you Anglo-Saxons, comparing my people to the untrustworthy.

You know, since the Welsh are actually a minority group, one could make a case against this (assuming the Welch are the Welsh). I wouldn't be fine with associating the Welsh with untrustworthiness.


As for the Vandals and Goths, as far as I know there is no remaining Vandal or Goth identity (at least not in that sense), so in this case there would be no reason to avoid using the words out of fear of hurting someone.


On a similar note, is Hooligan still an existing surname?

So basically the greeks are a pawn in a grand scheme to make EU citizens broke?

The goal is to make some people rich (predominantly the banks). I don't think they even realize this goes at the costs of other's wallets.

[MonkeyHead]

Thing is, the reason why the word made its way into the English language is that my bronze age, iron age, dark age and medieval ancerstors were led by a loooooong succession of pretty devious/untrustworthy/backstabbing bunch of assorted petty warlords and powerful provincial lords/princes wich pissed off the Anglo Saxons and Normans for the best part of 500 to 700 years, and did the same to the Romans before them. Its not exactly undeserving. Of course, this hardly justifies the near millenia of opression that arose, but my ancestors were hardly alone in being under an imperial yoke for a large portion of its history. Thankfully our culture and language survived, probably as a reaction to the many efforts made to crush our identity.

So, yea, basically, - is Imperialism good for cultural diversity in the long term? I mean, the modern identities of India, the USA, Australia, heck, many other nations have been created as a result of it. Will Iraq or Afghanistan be better off for the intervention than if they were left well alone?

[G-Flex]

Imperialism isn't the only way to affect other cultures, you know. Obviously the modern identities of many places is different due to imperial influence, but who's to say it would be worse without it?

[MonkeyHead]

Imperialism isn't the only way to affect other cultures, you know. Obviously the modern identities of many places is different due to imperial influence, but who's to say it would be worse without it?

Well, yes, but in the case of the defunct British Empire it was very much a case of "arrive, overpower, and overwrite", in the same way that most of modern Europe was given shape (geographically and politically) by the Romans. Such levels of influence are not really apparent in the modern world, for pretty obviour reasons, clearly for the better in terms of opression.

[kaenneth]

I wasn't joking or being sarcastic about being annoyed by the abuse of the Vandal name. It has bothered me for many years, the talk about Gypsies just reminded me about it.

Anyway, my understanding of the phrase "Welch on a bet" described English bettors fleeing the country (to Wales) to avoid paying; it's like calling American Vietnam war draft dodgers "Canada runners" or something.

Still a term best avoided, just like 'Ni__ardly' for being a cheapskate (don't tell me 'cheapskate' is racist in some way...) as it's too easily mistaken in intent.

I'm torn on Goth, I think that the style is a tribute to that culture, and don't see it as insulting, but I don't know much about the original Goths.

[Vector]

Niggardly has a totally separate etymology, though

You've got to pay attention to when and where you use it, but I think that most people who are educated enough to know that it means "miserly" are also educated enough to know that it doesn't come from, well... that word.

[kaijyuu]

Man, I missed the 10 page debate on word choice? And it's apparently still going on because 2 replies were posted while I was typing this up.



Everyone agrees that the meaning of words change over time. "Gay" no longer means "happy" or "joyful" to most people. Also, words can mean different things depending on local common usage; "arse" is a very tame word for butt in the USA while "ass" is the stronger word, but the situation is flipped in the UK (last I heard; I don't live there).


So then, why do people cling to offensive definitions of words who have, at least in part (and in some cases, almost entirely) moved past that? Fear of offending the random passerby that might carry the old (or different) definition is a fine reason, but that does not mean these words can never be used in a non-offensive manner. Context and audience are vastly important, and it's quite foolish to ignore them. I can say "gypped" where I live without being offensive because almost no one here realizes the original meaning behind that word. To them (and to me until a couple years ago), it's just a synonym for being ripped off. I'm not going to cling to the old definition and claim it's the only "right" one, any more than I'm going to try and correct people into using "gay" to mean happy or joyful. Words to not become locked in place eternally due to one of their possible definitions being offensive. If that were the case, you'd have to stop using words like "barbarian" due to their historical context, as well.

You wanna play it safe and not use certain words to the possibility of misinterpretation? Be my guest; that's a mature thing to do. What's not mature is to get offended when you damn well know the speaker did not intend the offensive definition. Applying value judgements to symbols and not what they represent is goddamn ridiculous.

[NinjaBoot]

Man, I missed the 10 page debate on word choice? And it's apparently still going on because 2 replies were posted while I was typing this up.



Everyone agrees that the meaning of words change over time. "Gay" no longer means "happy" or "joyful" to most people. Also, words can mean different things depending on local common usage; "arse" is a very tame word for butt in the USA while "ass" is the stronger word, but the situation is flipped in the UK (last I heard; I don't live there).


So then, why do people cling to offensive definitions of words who have, at least in part (and in some cases, almost entirely) moved past that? Fear of offending the random passerby that might carry the old (or different) definition is a fine reason, but that does not mean these words can never be used in a non-offensive manner. Context and audience are vastly important, and it's quite foolish to ignore them. I can say "gypped" where I live without being offensive because almost no one here realizes the original meaning behind that word. To them (and to me until a couple years ago), it's just a synonym for being ripped off. I'm not going to cling to the old definition and claim it's the only "right" one, any more than I'm going to try and correct people into using "gay" to mean happy or joyful. Words to not become locked in place eternally due to one of their possible definitions being offensive. If that were the case, you'd have to stop using words like "barbarian" due to their historical context, as well.

You wanna play it safe and not use certain words to the possibility of misinterpretation? Be my guest; that's a mature thing to do. What's not mature is to get offended when you damn well know the speaker did not intend the offensive definition. Applying value judgements to symbols and not what they represent is goddamn ridiculous.

You mean that editor who got fired for using the headline "Chink in the Armor" after Jeremy Lin's win-streak with the Knicks was stopped?   

[Montague]

Wow, people take their political correctness seriously.

I find it sort of ironic that progressives work to stifle the use of words relating to ethnic groups while the conservatives work to stifle the use of every other generally offensive term.

It's great both sides can come together for the cause of eroding freedom of speech, though, seriously. Perhaps someday we can get everybody to think the same if we can simply control the speech they use to communicate ideas.

[Vector]

The government should stay the hell out of free speech.

That does not mean that we have no obligation to speak morally.

[Rose]

Part of that is not saying offensive things

The other is not choosing to take offense where none was meant.

[scriver]

The Goth was one of the two largest tribes of modern Sweden (the other one being the Swedes), living in southern quarter of the country (an area then and now called "Gothia"), and yeah, we still exist. The Visi- and Ostrogoths of the Black Sea just emigrated there from modern Sweden.

Incidentally, my name means "Staff of the Goth".


Also, like has been said so many times before, we understand Max was ignorant of what he was saying and nobody here was offended by it. We were just trying to get him to understand that what he said was offensive.