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[kaijyuu]

A mother has been charged with endangering the welfare of her child after he was forced to walk five miles to school and made incriminating statements against her.

Hrm... yup.

Normally I'm against child endangerment stuff that doesn't allow kids to walk more than a block away from where they live. We're way too terrified of kids being abducted by the boogeyman. 4.6 miles in 30 degree F weather is waaaay over the line, though. Not to mention the accused beatings.

Deciding that opposing the existence of abortion, contraceptives, and pornography wasn't batshit insane enough, Rick Santorum has announced opposition to Obamacare covering prenatal screening. He claims that this is part of the president's sinister plot to abort disabled fetuses and change the moral code of the Catholic Church instead of running an administration "based of the theology of the bible".

Haha, wow. "Phony theology," huh? Except Christianity (and specifically Catholicism), of course!

EU opposes tar sand oil reserves, Canada threatens trade war in return.

Stop being dumb, Canada.

[Max White]

G-Flex, I hope you understand that I would gladly continue this, and I really was enjoying myself, but it seems MetalSlimeHunt is putting his foot down. I am going to, once again, be the bigger man and say we stop this now before we run the thread to ruins.

[G-Flex]

Guys, this thing about gypsies doesn't matter and isn't on the thread topic. We can't do stuff like this here without Vector around, because Toady might well shut down the thread for good.

I didn't think it was terribly appropriate here either, but Max White made a pretty big deal about moving it here for some reason.

G-Flex, I hope you understand that I would gladly continue this, and I really was enjoying myself, but it seems MetalSlimeHunt is putting his foot down. I am going to, once again, be the bigger man and say we stop this now before we run the thread to ruins.

I agree we should stop, because it's not exactly being productive, but I would caution you against calling yourself "the bigger man" in a case that mostly involves you obstinately denying that you said something that accidentally came off as offensive.

[RedKing]

Let me offer an analogy. Down here, "Yankee" is a term with a definite pejorative undertone, with cultural stereotype attached (loud, obnoxious, rude, and outsider). Does that mean I should be offended by the Yankee Candle Company? Or "Yankee Doodle Dandy"? Or every time a British/Aussie calls me a Yank? Especially considering that the term was originally a British pejorative towards the American colonists, and was reclaimed by the Americans (and later, specifically Americans in the Northeast) as a badge of pride?

More importantly, just because some people use it as a pejorative, does that mean there's no legitimate usage of the word, especially outside the context of the US South?

[FearfulJesuit]

Canada!


Would you people please vote NDP in 2015? I'm from south of the border, so I'm not allowed to. Luckily, Harper can't do anything if a few of his party comrades vote against him. How good is he at keeping the party together?

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Given the rather large gains NDP made after the no confidence vote, I wouldn't be surprised if they did win the election.

[G-Flex]

Let me offer an analogy. Down here, "Yankee" is a term with a definite pejorative undertone, with cultural stereotype attached (loud, obnoxious, rude, and outsider). Does that mean I should be offended by the Yankee Candle Company? Or "Yankee Doodle Dandy"? Or every time a British/Aussie calls me a Yank? Especially considering that the term was originally a British pejorative towards the American colonists, and was reclaimed by the Americans (and later, specifically Americans in the Northeast) as a badge of pride?

More importantly, just because some people use it as a pejorative, does that mean there's no legitimate usage of the word, especially outside the context of the US South?

Sigh. This is not the best comparison to make, at all.

Again, this is not even completely about a word itself being a pejorative or not. It has to do more with using a word to refer to a cultural or ethnic stereotype. The history of any word is complex, can be context-sensitive, and have different connotations depending on where you go or who uses it. In this specific case, the word was being used in direct reference to a stereotypical portrayal of an ethnic/cultural group, and on another level (if you want to get into that), the word "gypsy" has negative connotations in American culture as a whole related to said stereotypes. "Gypsy" is not divorced from its ethnic/culturally insensitive roots in American culture, and generally refers to the group in a stereotypical and insensitive manner, or to a stereotypical and insensitive portrayal of that group.

Now, if the term "gypsy" had been reappropriated by the Romani people as a badge of pride and were being used by them, or were being used to refer to the ethnic group themselves with no connotations or stereotypes attached, that would be a slightly different scenario. But that is not the case here.

[kaijyuu]

More importantly, just because some people use it as a pejorative, does that mean there's no legitimate usage of the word, especially outside the context of the US South?

I'll definitely agree with you that words can be used in non-offensive manners, but that's not the argument being made. The argument being made is it's "insensitive" to use these words, because the possibility for miscommunication exists.

The difference between "offensive" and "insensitive" is the former is intended to insult, while the latter can reasonably be seen as intended to insult. Avoiding accidental insults is the entire point of political correctness and courtesy.



For the original word usage that fired off this debate, I'm pretty much on Max's side. G-Flex makes plenty of good arguments but I'm not convinced anyone would reasonably misinterpret what Max said, due to context and audience. After all, getting angry over words, and not the intent behind them, is something I'm usually railing heavily against. I hate it when people get angry over the symbol and not what it represents.

Guys, this thing about gypsies doesn't matter and isn't on the thread topic. We can't do stuff like this here without Vector around, because Toady might well shut down the thread for good.

Word choice and political correctness (especially when concerning racism/sexism/etc) a social issue, and we've discussed very similar things in the past. Also, unless it devolves into a flame war, I doubt the thread will be closed over it.

[Max White]

Oh are we still doing this? Well ok, I just sent this PM.

Sigh. This is not the best comparison to make, at all.

Again, this is not even completely about a word itself being a pejorative or not. It has to do more with using a word to refer to a cultural or ethnic stereotype. The history of any word is complex, can be context-sensitive, and have different connotations depending on where you go or who uses it. In this specific case, the word was being used in direct reference to a stereotypical portrayal of an ethnic/cultural group, and on another level (if you want to get into that), the word "gypsy" has negative connotations in American culture as a whole related to said stereotypes. "Gypsy" is not divorced from its ethnic/culturally insensitive roots in American culture, and generally refers to the group in a stereotypical and insensitive manner, or to a stereotypical and insensitive portrayal of that group.

Now, if the term "gypsy" had been reappropriated by the Romani people as a badge of pride and were being used by them, or were being used to refer to the ethnic group themselves with no connotations or stereotypes attached, that would be a slightly different scenario. But that is not the case here.

I think it was a very good comparison. Race of people who take on a label as a badge of pride, and race of people who take on a label as a badge of pride. After all, I cited examples of people of Romani decent calling themselves gypsies as a mark of heritage and honour.
Word referring to a group of people taking on several meanings, and oh look, another word referring to a group of people taking on many meanings. Just as Yankee can be an american, or somebody at a sporting game, or a slur, in the same way gypsy can be a Romani, or a vagabond, or a slur. All three are possible, but just because I'm using the second doesn't mean I am also using the third.

People, even some Romani, use it with a positive spin, so safe to say it is very much divorced from being a slur.

[RedKing]

G-Flex, I want to say this in the nicest and least confrontational way, but this line:

"Gypsy" is not divorced from its ethnic/culturally insensitive roots in American culture, and generally refers to the group in a stereotypical and insensitive manner, or to a stereotypical and insensitive portrayal of that group.

is bullshit.

Spoiler: American usages of "Gypsy" that have ZERO connotations relating to the Roma people. (click to show/hide)

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Guys, this thing about gypsies doesn't matter and isn't on the thread topic. We can't do stuff like this here without Vector around, because Toady might well shut down the thread for good.

Word choice and political correctness (especially when concerning racism/sexism/etc) a social issue, and we've discussed very similar things in the past. Also, unless it devolves into a flame war, I doubt the thread will be closed over it.

It started that way, but by this point it's devolved into bickering. And if there's anything Toady will lock a thread over, it's illegal activity, but second to that is bickering.

[G-Flex]

G-Flex, I want to say this in the nicest and least confrontational way, but this line:

"Gypsy" is not divorced from its ethnic/culturally insensitive roots in American culture, and generally refers to the group in a stereotypical and insensitive manner, or to a stereotypical and insensitive portrayal of that group.

is bullshit.

I said that the word, in general, is not divorced from its associations with those people. If I name a silly robot "Wetback", that doesn't mean that "Wetback" is no longer associated with hispanics or Mexicans. It's a ridiculous argument to make. Isolated cases of a word being used in a way that's divorced of any of its original meaning does not mean that word is divorced from its meaning in the general case. The show also has a robot named "Crow"; does that mean that the word "crow" is etymologically divorced from its meaning related to birds in American culture? Of course it doesn't.

Regarding the Bette Midler movie: It's called that because it's about a real-life burlesque entertainer named "Gypsy Rose Lee". Why she named herself that beats the hell out of me, but I'm not going to assume it does or doesn't have anything to do with popular portrays of actual gypsies or anything related.

Regarding the Fleetwood Mac song: It related to a perception/identification of a person as a "poor gypsy" (not my words) by virtue of their lifestyle. To say this isn't related to a perception of gypsies (the group) is just plain silly.

But this is getting away from the main point that a word being used in a meaningless sense in a few isolated cases has nothing to do with whether it is in the general case, or in any specific case we're talking about. Again, if I named a horse, a TV robot, a song, or a weather balloon "Wetback" with no explanation given, that doesn't mean people can call lazy farm-workers "wetbacks" without suspicion of the word being linked to ethnicity. And in this specific case, as used in Max White's original message, the word had extremely obvious connections to stereotypical portrayals of Roma people.

For example, if I wrote a song about getting ripped off at a market, and called it "Jewed!", that wouldn't somehow make the verb "jew" (to rip off) somehow divorced from its connection to the cultural group involved.

[Max White]

And in this specific case, as used in Max White's original message, the word had extremely obvious connections to stereotypical portrayals of Roma people.

No, I was not referring to any genetic background, I was using the definition of 'Somebody with a nomadic lifestyle'
It is like are are insisting that a Yankee must be referring to a loud, unruly person, rather than somebody from the US of A.

[G-Flex]

And in this specific case, as used in Max White's original message, the word had extremely obvious connections to stereotypical portrayals of Roma people.

No, I was not referring to any genetic background, I was using the definition of 'Somebody with a nomadic lifestyle'
It is like are are insisting that a Yankee must be referring to a loud, unruly person, rather than somebody from the US of A.

"Somebody with a nomadic lifestyle" is a stereotype of the Roma people in the first place. They are not all nomadic these days, and to conflate "gypsy" with one particular aspect of how traditional gypsies live(d) is a fair bit insensitive. And that being said, I'd argue that the word "gypsy" has negative connotations on top of that, as the stereotype is far from being limited to "nomadic people".

[Max White]

Does that mean that because "Somebody who wears khaki shorts" is the stereotype for an Australian, any reference to said colour of shorts is a reference to Australians?
Does that mean that because an apple is a fruit, any reference to a fruit must be talking about an apple?

It is a more generic term, you need to accept that.