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[kaijyuu]

Remember that words aren't "good" or "bad." The arrangement of letters and/or syllables isn't the problem. It's what's meant by the speaker that makes it offensive. So really, any word describing a group of people can be offensive if meant that way; simply saying the name of a race, gender, etc with the intent of associating the group's negative stereotypes with it is offensive, and thus can be construed as a "slur." This is why many of the old terms for African Americans (colored, etc) can be seen as offensive today.

G-Flex isn't saying you were intentionally insulting anyone, but were using a word in a way where it could be reasonably interpreted that you were. Hence, "insensitive." Not racist, not a jerkass, nothing like that; just not taking what he thinks are the appropriate steps to avoid miscommunication.

[Max White]

Here is the quote for context.

No you don't understand! Vector is really a travelling internet gipsy, and she carries a great and legendary artefact, the orb of intellect! At well as a very impressive +8 to the holders INT score, it has a passive aura that causes all near the holder to act in a calm and civilised manner. Without that artefact, we are doooomed!

Offensive?

Edit: Wow, reading over the quote, epic foreshadow? 

[FearfulJesuit]

FWIW, I'm with Max on this one. There are so few Romani in the US and Australia that there's no negative connotation (or even ethnic identity) associated with the term "gypsy".

I'd compare it with the common use of the term "Eskimo" by pretty much everyone who lives outside of Canada. Whereas Canadians find it offensive (because apparently the term is pejorative in one of the Inuit languages) and refer them to as "Inuit" or "First Nations". Is the rest of the world racist?

I think you guys are crucifying Max through your own cultural lens and not considering that maybe there was no malice intended, and that from his perspective, no malice was committed.

I've done a school-funded trip abroad in Nunavut, and I've got Yup'ik members of the family by marriage (mother's family is from Alaska), so I've flown into minor rages at Americans who use "Eskimo". It's kind of an unfortunate thing to choose as my berserk button.

[G-Flex]

Okay. Fine. I'll bite.

If "Mexican" were to be used to refer to something stereotypically associated with Mexicans, it would be slurring Mexicans to use it that way, because 1) It's still a stereotype of those people not entirely divorced from its original meaning referring to those people themselves, and 2) It still carries other connotations related to stereotypes of those people.

For example, if "Mexican" were used as a term referring to, say, being a day laborer or itinerant worker: "Oh, you thought that guy worked in I.T.? Nah, he's been a Mexican for years now, working on farms in Iowa."

FWIW, I'm with Max on this one. There are so few Romani in the US and Australia that there's no negative connotation (or even ethnic identity) associated with the term "gypsy".

There are sure as hell negative connotations surrounding it. It's a common archetype in fiction for "gypsies" to be thieves, mystical fortune-tellers and the like (usually with ill intentions), vagabonds, and that sort of thing. It's not even all that rare. For example, that Stephen King novel "Thinner" has a plot revolving around being hexed by an old gypsy woman in revenge. Vampire: The Masquerade had an entire vampire clan that the writers removed from the game after receiving complaints because it was essentially based on gypsy stereotypes (thieving vampires skilled in illusion and trickery).

Hell, I remember one of my parents saying that one of their parents (or grandparents?) used to joke about "selling [them] to the Gypsies". The Roma[ni] people have never had a huge presence in the US, to my knowledge, but there sure as hell are still negative connotations associated with them. The only difference is that they're basically treated as fictional.

Also: If the US never had any negative connotations associated with gypsies/the word "gypsy", then where does the slur "gyp" come from exactly? That's a pretty common word, even.

I'd compare it with the common use of the term "Eskimo" by pretty much everyone who lives outside of Canada. Whereas Canadians find it offensive (because apparently the term is pejorative in one of the Inuit languages) and refer them to as "Inuit" or "First Nations". Is the rest of the world racist?

It is if it has negative or stereotypical connotations unfairly associated with it, as is the case with "gypsy", even in the US.

[kaijyuu]

Well it's certainly an insult toward spelling

[Max White]

For example, if "Mexican" were used as a term referring to, say, being a day laborer or itinerant worker: "Oh, you thought that guy worked in I.T.? Nah, he's been a Mexican for years now, working on farms in Iowa."

But then that isn't because the word holds a negative meaning itself, so you can't really call it a slur. It is the way it is used in the example that makes it a slur, for example!

Oh, you thought that guy worked in I.T.? Nah, he's been a Welshmen for years now, working on farms in (Welsh location here)

Oh, you thought that guy worked in I.T.? Nah, he's been a African for years now, working on farms in (African location here).

Oh, you thought that guy worked in I.T.? Nah, he's been Chinese for years now, working on farms in (Chinese location here).

Oh, you thought that guy worked in I.T.? Nah, he's been a Jamaican for years now, working on farms in (Jamaica location here).

Oh, you thought that guy worked in I.T.? Nah, he's been a Aussie for years now, working on farms in Queensland.

We don't instantly think of those nations as a slur, because they are not, it is just the misuse of them to give bad spin. I wasn't trying to give anybody a bad spin, so it isn't an accurate metaphor. Your Mexican argument is flawed.

[G-Flex]

To be more clear: I was perfectly willing to believe that Max White had no concept of "gypsies" as an actual ethnic or cultural group, which he apparently did not, and assumed he wouldn't use it to refer to a stereotype of them after being informed of this. I didn't think he was trying to be malicious.

But then that isn't because the word holds a negative meaning itself, so you can't really call it a slur. It is the way it is used in the example that makes it a slur, for example!

... I know that. That's exactly my point. That a word can be used as a slur even if it isn't inherently a slur to begin with. I've been trying to say that for a while now. Using a cultural/ethnic identifier to refer to a stereotype of those people is using it as a slur, even if you aren't doing so intentionally. It's not your fault you didn't know that "gypsies" weren't actually an ethnic or cultural group. I'm not chastising you for ignorance here. I'm chastising you because you seem to think it would be an okay thing to say again.

[GlyphGryph]

Iowa is not in Mexico, Max.

[Max White]

... I know that. That's exactly my point. That a word can be used as a slur even if it isn't inherently a slur to begin with. I've been trying to say that for a while now.

So the word isn't a slur, and I wasn't using it as a slur, so I don't see your problem. No sin here.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

SO, ABOUT THAT PROGRESSIVE RAGE

The United Nations supposedly wants to take control over the internet, through a China and Russia-backed initiative. (Warning: Opinion piece)

A mother has been charged with endangering the welfare of her child after he was forced to walk five miles to school and made incriminating statements against her.

Deciding that opposing the existence of abortion, contraceptives, and pornography wasn't batshit insane enough, Rick Santorum has announced opposition to Obamacare covering prenatal screening. He claims that this is part of the president's sinister plot to abort disabled fetuses and change the moral code of the Catholic Church instead of running an administration "based of the theology of the bible".

EU opposes tar sand oil reserves, Canada threatens trade war in return.

[G-Flex]

... I know that. That's exactly my point. That a word can be used as a slur even if it isn't inherently a slur to begin with. I've been trying to say that for a while now.

So the word isn't a slur, and I wasn't using it as a slur, so I don't see your problem. No sin here.

You are aware people can do things accidentally, right? You weren't meaning to evoke an unfortunate stereotype, but you still did. This isn't about "sin", and I'm not about to blame you for simply not being aware of what you were doing, or the meaning of a word. I'm blaming you for apparently not seeing that you said something that was offensive, accidentally or not.

[Max White]

I don't see what I did by accident, after all, you said yourself that the word gypsy isn't a slur on its own right, and I didn't put any negative connotation on it. You have yet to justify how anything I said was offensive.

[RedKing]

EU opposes tar sand oil reserves, Canada threatens trade war in return.

Millions of Europeans cry out, "Where we get our delicious maple syrup from?"
Tens of Canadians cry out, "Oh, we're gonna miss dat dere Swiss chocolate, eh?"
 

[G-Flex]

I don't see what I did by accident, after all, you said yourself that the word gypsy isn't a slur on its own right, and I didn't put any negative connotation on it. You have yet to justify how anything I said was offensive.

How people perceive something is important, not just your intent. I've demonstrated that the word has negative connotations; whether or not you were aware of them in your usage doesn't change that fact. If I'm someone who's just learning English and I use the n-word to refer to black people without realizing that it has negative connotations associated with it, and someone informs me of that, then I should probably not continue to use it just because I can claim "well, that's not how *I* mean it". And yes, I know those situations are very different, in case you're going to argue about how analogies work; I'm just saying that "I didn't mean it that way!" isn't a get-out-of-slurring-accusations-free card.

There's also the fact that you kind of did mean it that way. You were using the word to refer to a stereotypical portrayal of an ethnic group. You didn't know this at the time, but that's still what you did. That is where the word comes from, and what it means, and it has plenty of negative connotations associated with it whether you intended them or not.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Guys, this thing about gypsies doesn't matter and isn't on the thread topic. We can't do stuff like this here without Vector around, because Toady might well shut down the thread for good.