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[Frumple]

Yeah, a second reading got a lot of disconnected points that don't seem to back up that final point. [rant] That last point is a point I hear fairly often, can accept as a possibility, and happily deny as anything I'm interested in pursuing. Human is human, what psycho-physiological differences exist between the genders are not sufficiently large to make a significant difference and should be largely discarded as part of the cultural dialogue. The sooner we drop the notion of some physical triviality defining what we're "for," the better off we'll be. Understand the point it's making and where it's coming from, but I can't really accept it as valid until we find some social role that one of the genders is genuinely better at -- not statistically, but in the greatest example thereof. Until we find that the most caring man is less caring than the most caring woman, and the most logical woman is less logical than the most logical man (data points often held up by those pursuing th'line of thought in question), I pretty readily throw that position out the window.[/rant]

This sentence, though... especially the underlined part

Anyone serious about thinking through the role of women in today’s civilization is doing worthless work unless they take the controversies on the right hand in hand with the unsuccessfully suppressed tensions on the opposite side of the spectrum, where disagreements far more volatile in their profundity roil respectable liberalism.

That doesn't make sense! *grammar headache* Quick E: Or maybe I've just never seen roil used like that before. Hrm. Still painful to look at.

[Heron TSG]

Anti-Discrimination Petition

Specifically, to prevent federal employees from being fired based on their LGBT status and the like.

1. Couldn't really make heads nor tails of it, myself.
2. Cool!
3. ...WHAT!?

[NinjaBoot]

Anti-Discrimination Petition

Specifically, to prevent federal employees from being fired based on their LGBT status and the like.

1. Couldn't really make heads nor tails of it, myself.
2. Cool!
3. ...WHAT!?

What indeed.  I figure current anti-discrimination laws cover this.

[G-Flex]

Anti-Discrimination Petition

Specifically, to prevent federal employees from being fired based on their LGBT status and the like.

1. Couldn't really make heads nor tails of it, myself.
2. Cool!
3. ...WHAT!?

What indeed.  I figure current anti-discrimination laws cover this.

They don't. At least not everywhere.

[NinjaBoot]

Anti-Discrimination Petition

Specifically, to prevent federal employees from being fired based on their LGBT status and the like.

1. Couldn't really make heads nor tails of it, myself.
2. Cool!
3. ...WHAT!?

What indeed.  I figure current anti-discrimination laws cover this.

They don't. At least not everywhere.

I can see transgendered not being covered.  But are we really having a problem where transgendered people can't find meaningful employment for their current skill-set without feeling that it is because they are transgendered to begin with?  In all honesty, I doubt it will do anything aside from opening up more businesses to potential lawsuits.

[G-Flex]

But are we really having a problem where transgendered people can't find meaningful employment for their current skill-set without feeling that it is because they are transgendered to begin with?

If you're asking if people discriminate against transgendered individuals: Yes, I'm sure they do.

[Heron TSG]

That list was actually at Vector's list of links above, I should have clarified.

But are we really having a problem where transgendered people can't find meaningful employment for their current skill-set without feeling that it is because they are transgendered to begin with?

If you're asking if people discriminate against transgendered individuals: Yes, I'm sure they do.

In fact, I recall Truean saying that she was afraid of coming out at work for precisely this reason. (Likely being fired and all.) If it protects people in any federal job, that's a good start.

[scriver]

Remember that law which says you have to sterilise yourself to change gender in Sweden? And how it wasn't done away with recently only because the other rightwing coalition parties considered it a non-issue and wanted to throw the Christian Democrats (who are such a small party they are essentially irrelevany) a bone (even though all other parties except the neonazis supported it, on paper at least)? Remember also how I mentioned a schism in the Christian Democrats, and how the less conservative fundamentalist won (much to the dismay of lips and horritainment everywhere)? Well, now the CD has had a change of heart, and decided they do want to change the law, though it is of course uncertain when it's going to happen. But still, don't you wish you had our religious rightwingers?

Of course, this is basically a big fuck you to the more (most) conservative part of the party. This will probably tear up the stitches holding the party together, we might even see a split in the future. Won't do them any good though, they're under the 4% of the vote barrier as it is, and a split would just remove them completely. It's a little exciting, kind of like a real life political soap opera.

[Truean]

Anti-Discrimination Petition

Specifically, to prevent federal employees from being fired based on their LGBT status and the like.

1. Couldn't really make heads nor tails of it, myself.
2. Cool!
3. ...WHAT!?

What indeed.  I figure current anti-discrimination laws cover this.

They don't. At least not everywhere.

Yeah, your average American knows absolutely nothing about law and just assumes everything is "fair" by default.... The more they think they know, usually, the less they actually do and it shows in my office.... I never cease to be amazed how people attempt to lecture ME about law, knowing that I am an attorney. I've studied this shit for years and years, but screw that, "they think" or "they feel." That has all the legal validity of a bowl movement. Law is rarely "fair," and it doesn't give a shit what you, or me, or anyone else thinks is "fair." Fact of the matter is, you can be fired for being gay in the overwhelming majority of the US and transgendered people have even less protection. I get the opposite opinion a lot actually, because people simply don't know anything about law.

I can see transgendered not being covered.  But are we really having a problem where transgendered people can't find meaningful employment for their current skill-set without feeling that it is because they are transgendered to begin with?  In all honesty, I doubt it will do anything aside from opening up more businesses to potential lawsuits.

Where do I even begin? Do people really think this? I don't really feel like doing a "very special episode," and I'm not your "Long Lost Uncle/Aunt Aesop" so here's a very abridged version.

1.) "I can see transgendered not being covered." Do I dare ask why? My life is a constant living hell due to people not liking transsexuals and the workplace is totally included in that, as is getting clients/cases. I've had people not want me to represent them solely due to long hair, which I basically had to cut.... I've also been told to my face that I've been fired at other jobs for being a "fucking sissy faggot," had someone try to blackmail me, been beaten the living shit out of repeatedly as a kid (and dumped off at a hospital because they were afraid I'd die/the police might consider murder serious/one of them couldn't stop the fucking bleeding, only to wake up as an unrecognizably beaten john doe), and to this day have to live a total fucking miserable lie. I have had parents basically not allow me around their adult children/my friends. I live in a family that thinks all gay people are pedophiles. Many of my friends have boyfriends that don't want me near their girlfriends. Store clerks are often incredibly rude when I try to buy clothing, even though they are getting paid commission off it. You have no idea the never ending fountain of legit grievances I have lived through and store inside me..... My life is a never ending, soul devouring hell, the likes of which I will never fully tell you, because I'm trans.... That is sanitized/vastly abridged version.... But hey, I'm not bitter.... Bitter doesn't begin to cover it. My bitterness has long ago gone beyond the ability of all existing words to express it. Clearly, a new word is needed. Let's see, "Omnijaded," "Ultrabitter," "Megatrenchant," "Anethecaustic," "Mordantanation," I could go on, but that will suffice. I chose Omnijaded.... "Omnijaded," adjective: To be jaded in all possible ways, conditions and variances. "The omnijaded lawyer had seen nearly every form of human depravity."

2) "But are we really having a problem where transgendered people can't find meaningful employment for their current skill-set without feeling that it is because they are transgendered to begin with?"

.... I could literally talk to you all night about this problem. Whether it be from my or my friends' personal experiences. Let's see, there's the transgender suicide rate of between 30-50% depending upon who you ask. Even the lowball estimate is 30%, because we are largely regarded as the untouchables of society. Take a look at the SHRM (Society for Human Resource Management) people who are starting to get it:
http://www.shrm.org/hrdisciplines/Diversity/Articles/Pages/TransgenderWorkers.aspx

I personally know and have represented in court a lot of transgendered individuals who have had to resort to prostitution and sex work because nobody wants to hire them and this is an immensely dangerous proposition. If you try to transition on the job you currently have, then you can expect to be fired. From there, good luck getting hired anywhere else, because your last job will happily point out that you are trans to anyone who you've given your resume to.

Let's see, then there's my friend Tracy, formerly Mitch, who was the best Patent Lawyer on the North Coast. Judges used to call when they had a question.... Yeah. He brought his firm in over $300,000 in billable hours a year and didn't make even half of that as a salary. He tried to transition on the job only to have them make life such a living hell that he was forced to quit and move to another state.... The men said and did unprintable things and the women were nearly if not just as bad. Even after the final surgery, they didn't want Tracy using the ladies' room.... They made her job impossible to do. "Suddenly," the overwhelming majority of her clients wanted nothing to do with her. These were people she had a decade or more of history with, having done their wills, having gotten their stupid spoiled rich kids out of jail on drug charges, having defended their businesses against lawsuits, and basically knowing everything about them. She suspects her office probably encouraged a few of them to leave her and she's usually right about these things. She could afford every cosmetic surgery in the book and is positively stunning today, but she still fucking catches flack about it now and then. She was up for partner, and I somehow don't think she'll ever make that anywhere....

I could write an entirely true book about shit people do to transgendered individuals and most of it would violate the COC of this website.... Screw it, here's that transgender woman who was beaten until she started having a seizure in a McDonnalds just for trying to use the bathroom and who was more afraid of the news telling everyone she was transgender and thus opening her up to further attacks than anything else.... The employees taped the whole thing rather than help her/get their coworkers to stop kicking the shit out of her.... Going right along with that, you're basically screwed if you get raped.... Violence against transsexuals is a major concern to this day, never mind something far more simple like workplace discrimination....


3.) "In all honesty, I doubt it will do anything aside from opening up more businesses to potential lawsuits."

I've encountered this before and it goes right along with the overwhelming hatred of lawyers in general. Society at large hates us, but who do you run to the second anything goes wrong? We are your first, last and only resort when someone fucks you over.

The only equality you might, MIGHT, ever receive in your life is in a court of law. It's the only possibility. If some rich bastard runs you over, they will try to ignore you. Yes, this is a crime, and no, it doesn't stop people from doing it. I have seen it happen repeatedly. The only reason they might stop is to try to lower their legal liability. In that situation, for one brief second, if you can find the son of a bitch, you are just as good as him in reality. The reason the rich don't like lawsuits, is because it drags them kicking and screaming into court to face up for what they have done. It is one of the few things they truly fear and it should be only one of many.

People are not nice. The worst animals walk on two legs and are called humans. The more power they have, the less they care about other people.

The only uncorrupted democracy in America that ever existed or likely ever will exist is a jury. 12 random people picked off the street giving voice to the community and restrained by its laws. Unable to be legally bribed, untouched by media influence, it's the closest thing we have. Often the judicial branch is considered undemocratic; nothing could be further from the truth....

[Virex]

Society at large hates us, but who do you run to the second anything goes wrong?

The US also really loves it's guns... Who needs lawyers when you have Smith & Westhon?

[Truean]

Society at large hates us, but who do you run to the second anything goes wrong?

The US also really loves it's guns... Who needs lawyers when you have Smith & Westhon?

I admire their simple point and click interface and the fact that this gun company provides me many of my criminal defense clients....

[Nadaka]

Society at large hates us, but who do you run to the second anything goes wrong?

The US also really loves it's guns... Who needs lawyers when you have Smith & Westhon?

Because you shooting a corporation isn't as effective as shooting other kinds of people.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Fact of the matter is, you can be fired for being gay in the overwhelming majority of the US and transgendered people have even less protection.

I think you're exaggerating a little bit.

16 states protect both sexual orientation and gender identity in all employment. (32% of the Union)
5 states protect just sexual orientation in all employment. (10% of the Union)
5 states protect both sexual orientation and gender identity in state employment. (10 % of the Union)
5 states protect just sexual orientation in all employment.  (10% of the Union)
19 states don't protect either. (38% of the Union)

That's a problem, but it isn't an overwhelming majority. Depending upon how you see the numbers, it isn't even a majority at all. And all it would take is a single Supreme Court decision to place sexual orientation or gender identity under suspect classification. California's courts already did just that.

[Truean]

Fact of the matter is, you can be fired for being gay in the overwhelming majority of the US and transgendered people have even less protection.

I think you're exaggerating a little bit.

16 states protect both sexual orientation and gender identity in all employment. (32% of the Union)
5 states protect just sexual orientation in all employment. (10% of the Union)
5 states protect both sexual orientation and gender identity in state employment. (10 % of the Union)
5 states protect just sexual orientation in all employment.  (10% of the Union)
19 states don't protect either. (38% of the Union)

That's a problem, but it isn't an overwhelming majority. Depending upon how you see the numbers, it isn't even a majority at all. And all it would take is a single Supreme Court decision to place sexual orientation or gender identity under suspect classification. California's courts already did just that.

A.) A simple majority is 25-26 states. 34-35 States is is a super-majority.... 3/4 of all states would be about 37.5 so 37-38? That's what you need to pass a constitutional amendment.... Yeah.... It wasn't that long ago.... Plus about 34 states have ammended their constitutions to prohibit gay marriage. California is one state.... The 9th circuit is the most liberal.... It is not over; it is not settled. Nothing has been won; nothing is certain. As for SOCTUS, who knows. It has a narrow conservative majority. One SCOTUS ruling the other way could screw things up too....
B.) The graph is incomplete. It's an "either/or" thing in the graph, but in reality, it isn't. "Protects," "X" and "Y," classes. Ok, how is it protected legally, how is this enforced, what standard/burden of proof is used, etc,etc.
C.) The form of protection matters. "19 don't protect either" is misleading. Take Ohio, which only protects sexual orientation in state government (not local, not federal) employment (if you can prove that's definitively the cause). That's by executive order only.... It can be revoked at will by any elected governor.... That means this 1.) doesn't apply to transgendered individuals at all, 2.) Any conservative gov. can come in and wash it away effortlessly, 3.) Because it's only an executive order, enforcing it is a major pain and you had better pray that conservative gov isn't in office. Suing over it is a massive pain the likes of which you don't even wanna know. Suing to enforce an executive order is hell and if the executive decides "this isn't worth it, I'll just change the policy" then you're done for.

The numbers look pretty, until you look behind them....

[Reelya]

Plus, if someone wants to fire you and they're smart they don't give a reason so you can't sue them. "You're services are no longer required.". They have no legal obligation to give you a job for life. Or, they give another vague reason like "poor performance."