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[ECrownofFire]

• It's "phenomenon".

/irony-fixed.

This is the perfect time to cite Muphry's law.

[GlyphGryph]

I do think it is exceptionally arrgont of humans to assume we are in any way, shape or form a major contributing factor in climate change.

Maybe. But then again, we know with a little persistence and a few dollars, we COULD fuck things up incredibly fast. And we're probably going to have to sooner or later... but anyway. Changing the climate by a few degrees isn't actually that difficult, no particular reason to believe our dedicated worlwide industrial pollution machine is going to be unable to manage it.

Of course, most eco-folks don't propose solutions - we're already on the way, and reducing some stuff here (while it gets worse in developing countries) isn't going to do much but buy us a bit of time.One of the geoengineering proposals is really our best bet.

But as I've said before, I think we should focus on generating additional oxygen - the oxygen plus the heat will be just the thing we need to get giant dragonflies everywhere.

[Deadmeat1471]

I think the main problem with eco issues has always been that it stunts growth. In a country like america growth is usually one of the PRIMARY concerns for politicians and people. Science which most dont understand, and the political right dont believe in is going to be hard to push on well established businesses, even if someone comes to the white house who really does want to do something about the worlds eco problems.

On top of this, the USA isnt the only contributer, China is equal to the USA in emissions. Not only would a decent ecological policy require a radical to be elected, it also needs that radical to push his ideas on everyone else, who are even more concerned about maintaining growth than the USA is......

I feel the time isnt right for environmental policies, once it really has an influence and no one can deny it exists no matter how much they disbelieve science, then it will become a major issue.
Paradoxically, it will probably be too late by then to do anything, so exodus to Mars anyone?

[Max White]

What I think people fail to understand is that an economy is not a separate entity to the environment, it is a dividend from it. We have a logging industry because we have forests, therefore cut down the forests are BAM your entire industry is gone. As such people complain that replanting is too costly, but they really don't see the long term picture here.
All pro environmental plans provide a positive effect on the economy in the long term. Increase the value of your investment, and you increase the dividend.

[Montague]

Yeah, its true that there really isn't the political will to do much of anything about it, especially with most of the world's economy going to shit at the moment.

I figure there is the idea that the free market will come up with a solution once alternatives become cost-effective and slowing down growth by implementing damage control now might create a stagnate research and development sector if corporations and bottom-lines are cut too much.

 When gas prices inevitably climb to 10$/gal in the US then there will be widespread concern about it. Hopefully it doesn't just result in people generating 'solutions' like government fuel subsidies or drilling in wildlife preserves or some shit like that. I have a feeling it will, though.

Still, you'd think emphasis on urbanization, mixed zoning laws and fuel/energy efficiency requirements would at least not be vigorously opposed by these conspiracy theorists. You'd think crazy rural people would be worried by civilization collapsing yet these "anti agenda-21" people are actually foaming at the mouth working toward that exact end.

[Deadmeat1471]

What I think people fail to understand is that an economy is not a separate entity to the environment, it is a dividend from it. We have a logging industry because we have forests, therefore cut down the forests are BAM your entire industry is gone. As such people complain that replanting is too costly, but they really don't see the long term picture here.
All pro environmental plans provide a positive effect on the economy in the long term. Increase the value of your investment, and you increase the dividend.

I think youre right partially, but I think the gains wouldn't be at first seen. It may be 10 or 20 years before they see the gains, and for a business they worry about just tomorrow or a year ahead most of the time. As we know from the banking crises 
It's like solar power, it would end in greater profit, but it would involve a period of hardship in which most companys aren't willing to make, for good solid business reasons. To risky, needs to be done across the board rather than relying on individual companys.
Companys and the republican party don't see the environment as a dividend, they see it as something to fight against for growth. They don't even believe in science. It's a reckless position created by pure unadulterated ignorance and political pandering.
Governments are supposed to run the country, not be run by the country.

[RedKing]

When gas prices inevitably climb to 10$/gal in the US then there will be widespread concern about it. Hopefully it doesn't just result in people generating 'solutions' like government fuel subsidies or drilling in wildlife preserves or some shit like that. I have a feeling it will, though.

People said the same thing about when it climbed to $3/gal or the unthinkable $4/gal (which it breached without riots in the streets, fuel shortages, or really any kind of change at all). I'm pessimistic about Americans' ability to just shrug their shoulders and accept it as "the new normal". It's the old "boil a frog in a pot slowly" thing.

Still, you'd think emphasis on urbanization, mixed zoning laws and fuel/energy efficiency requirements would at least not be vigorously opposed by these conspiracy theorists. You'd think crazy rural people would be worried by civilization collapsing yet these "anti agenda-21" people are actually foaming at the mouth working toward that exact end.

Why would rural people be worried? In their minds, they're the best positioned to survive such a downfall -- they can grow their own food, they've got guns, and hey they won't have to pay taxes to help all them lazy, dirty city folk (yes, I know it doesn't actually work that way, but that's the worldview they have).

One of the problems is that our country is so steeped in individualism and private property rights that there's a bit of a cult around the whole notion. People who insist that the American way is to be able to do whatever the hell you want to on your property, without regard to your neighbors. Unless of course, your neighbor does something to irritate you, at which point you claim that's totally different and that guy is a public nuisance. There's a guy in Cary whose house got grandfathered in when he was annexed, so he has Confederate flags, a working Civil War cannon, and a variety of garish signs declaring it a "Confederate Armory in Occupied North Carolina" and hurling invective at the town government and citizens in general. Although at this point, he's less nuisance and more "colorful area eccentric". Also, he's from Ohio, leading to the joke that even our rednecks are imported from the North. 

Thing is, the notion that your land is your unassailable castle and you should be free to do what you want with it works a lot better in rural areas where your neighbors are out of earshot and have their own water supplies and such.

[Montague]

I'm not sure how people could tolerate 10$/gal, especially with fuel prices increasing the cost of everything else and the stagnate wages in the country. I dunno how people could afford to maintain the business as usual approach at that point, or some point before 10$/gal especially since transportation costs are higher for more isolated or rural areas

Still, you are probably right. I might have aimed my derision toward small-town and suburb-dwellers more then people that genuinely live out in the countryside, although they do have similar outlooks on things. I think I can see how an energy crisis probably isn't going to alter their outlook much either.

[MaximumZero]

When I was working for a gas station, gas hit $4.35ish/gal. I was genuinely getting death threats, even though I wasn't the one setting the prices.

[Rose]

we get $6 per gallon over here so shut the hell up.

[MaximumZero]

When was the last time you bought 22 gallons of gas, Mr. Motor Scooter?

[RedKing]

When I was working for a gas station, gas hit $4.35ish/gal. I was genuinely getting death threats, even though I wasn't the one setting the prices.

Well, you know what they say....Shoot the messenger/pump attendant.

I like to think Peak Oil will cause us to return to using coal and wood and usher in a glorious era of inefficient steampunk transportation.

[MaximumZero]

I'm planning on building a fully electric car when I get my own place.

[GlyphGryph]

Aren't most trains and whatnot powered by coal in the US already?

Just not onboard coal, obviously.

[Nadaka]

After Hurricane Katrina, Gas was $10 to 15 a gallon in the part of Mississippi I was at. You waited in line for 4 hours to get your 2 gallon at a time limit from the guy with a swat team backing him up.

Aren't most trains and whatnot powered by coal in the US already?

Just not onboard coal, obviously.

No, most are diesel electric. There are a few electric passenger lines, but 99.9% of all train traffic is long distance freight.