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Author Topic: Chill and Relaxed Progressive Irritation and Annoyance Thread  (Read 877522 times)

Frumple

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Re: Chill and Relaxed Progressive Irritation and Annoyance Thread
« Reply #11160 on: February 12, 2012, 11:21:33 pm »

If you can miss a paper, you can mistake somebody for an intruder. If some people aren't as cautious as you, then fuck man, some people just aren't as cautious as you! We don't live in a perfect world, and that is why it is ignorant to think that it is ok to have people behind the wheel of a car.
Which is to say that while the first bit is fine enough, the conclusion doesn't really follow.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Chill and Relaxed Progressive Irritation and Annoyance Thread
« Reply #11161 on: February 12, 2012, 11:22:48 pm »

If you can miss a paper, you can mistake somebody for an intruder.
Mistaking someone for an intruder would be difficult as long as you don't do something stupid like shooting them while their back is turned to you or something. I would make my presence and armed state known before taking any further action. If they tried to attack me, I'd shoot to kill. If they surrendered, then they would have surrendered and I could simply call the police. If they ran I'd chance them down and detain them in a nonfatal manner, and then call the police. And if I was wrong and they weren't an intruder then we have an interesting story to tell people later.
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Max White

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Re: Chill and Relaxed Progressive Irritation and Annoyance Thread
« Reply #11162 on: February 12, 2012, 11:25:08 pm »

Don't live in a perfect world, remember.
It is easy to say what you would be in a calm situation like right now, but you don't know how you would act in a panic. In the perfect would you would be able to react calmly and clearly state your intentions and blah blah all that stuff that we all really should do, but in a panic situation things don't always work out.

Leafsnail

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Re: Chill and Relaxed Progressive Irritation and Annoyance Thread
« Reply #11163 on: February 12, 2012, 11:25:24 pm »

Wouldn't confronting a criminal like that make you more likely to get hurt (by, say, a panicked burglar with a gun), if anything, though?   Eh.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Chill and Relaxed Progressive Irritation and Annoyance Thread
« Reply #11164 on: February 12, 2012, 11:28:20 pm »

Don't live in a perfect world, remember.
It is easy to say what you would be in a calm situation like right now, but you don't know how you would act in a panic. In the perfect would you would be able to react calmly and clearly state your intentions and blah blah all that stuff that we all really should do, but in a panic situation things don't always work out.
Which is why learning to "switch off" (so to speak) in a high-stress situation and just act as needed without letting a flood of your thoughts get in the way is an important skill to learn at some point in your life.
Wouldn't confronting a criminal like that make you more likely to get hurt (by, say, a panicked burglar with a gun), if anything, though?   Eh.
Life is dangerous. It would be a dangerous thing to do, yes, but it eliminates the possibility of mistaken identity. And you don't have to explain to the court why the thief has an entry wound in their back even if it isn't.
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Truean

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Re: Chill and Relaxed Progressive Irritation and Annoyance Thread
« Reply #11165 on: February 12, 2012, 11:28:52 pm »

In re: Self Defense (Ohio)
[Disclaimer, do not use this as legal advice, really? This is entirely incomplete because the forum cut me off and also its an immensely complex topic. If you are arrested, then you need a lawyer licensed to practice law in your jurisdiction who knows the ins and outs where you are to have any kind of defense. Laws really, truly are different in different jurisdictions.].

Alright, due to some computer problems that last post somehow ended up posting while I was still typing stuff out. I think this had something to do with my breaking the forum's 40,000 character limit, which speaks volumes about the complexity of the topic. Therefore, I've drastically shortened it to provide only a small glimpse into Ohio self defense concerning oversimplified general offense not specific to any crime and as a defense against homicide generally. It appears I did not have room to cover battered woman syndrome, nor defense of others, nor defense of property, and I am furious all that typing went to waste..... I thus give you the abridged version:

Abridged answer concerning the Ohio Castle Law: It still really depends on the facts and circumstances. 
B.) Duty to retreat
One of the elements of self-defense is that the defendant did not violate any duty to retreat or avoid the danger.
So does that imply that if somebody breaks into your house, you are obliged to hide in your wardrobe before you take a shot at them?
That did used to be the case in Ohio, yes, until the castle doctrine law came into effect. Now it is not. However, this is not as cut and dry as people think it is. For example, it does not apply to one's driveway, nor their porch, nor the immediate exterior of one's home. Covered porches present a problem depending upon how covered/enclosed they are. Moreover, the castle doctrine doesn't cover a mere trespasser and the question becomes, "is this person a trespasser, or something more?"  (This is explained and cited in detail in the spoiler below).

The castle doctrine does not provide a cut and dry "yes I can shoot people who go into my house," answer. Rather, what it does, all it does, is get rid of one of those three elements required to establish self defense in certain circumstances. You still can't be at fault in creating the violent situation and you still must have had a bona fide belief that you were in imminent danger of great bodily harm and that your only means of escape from such danger was in the use of deadly force. We're talking about the law sanctioning the taking of a human life; so the standards aren't easy ones to meet. I would say, nor should they be.

The name of the case escapes me, but there is a case whereby a man failed to be acquitted of a murder charge under the "castle doctrine." He saw what he believed to be a man trying to break into his house through a basement window near his porch. He yelled (not saying anything but just yelling) and the startled, soon to be deceased man rose up with what the defendant thought was a metallic object in his hand. He fired once from a shotgun instantly killing the deceased, who in point of fact DID have a metallic object in his hand, a can of tuna with the label peeled off.... Confused? So was the defendant.

The other side of the story is that the deceased was out looking for the recently escaped family cat after his 6 year old daughter had begged him to "find Kitty." The deceased left the house in pursuit of the family feline with a can of tuna to coax it back to the call of "here kitty kitty...." It appears the man believed his cat ran under defendant's porch and and was "saying something" presumably to get the cat to come out. This is an example of the castle doctrine not applying in the case of a "mere trespasser." The jury didn't buy self defense in this case, because whether or not the defendant had a duty to retreat, the jury didn't think he met the second prong of establishing self defense. Namely, the jury didn't think he had a bona fide belief he was in imminent danger he could only get out of through the use of deadly force.....

Table of Contents:
A.) Self Defense Generally:
B.) Duty to retreat
C.) Concerning Assault:
D.) Concerning Homicide
E.) Homicide Defense: Consistency with other claims or pleas
F.) Homicide Defense: Absence of fault
G.) Homicide Defense: Necessity of killing, generally
H.) Homicide Defense: Bona fide belief; reasonable grounds for belief
I.) Homicide Defense: Subjective test for reasonableness
J.)  Homicide Defense:  Mistake of fact; acting on appearances
K.) Homicide Defense:  Effect of aggression or provocation by accused
L.) Homicide Defense:  Threats by deceased as justification
M.) Homicide Defense:  Duty to retreat

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

In a nutshell, it isn't simple and there are still people in prisons who thought they understood the law but didn't.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2012, 11:46:07 pm by Truean »
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Current Spare Time Fiction Project: (C) 2010 http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=63660.0
Disclaimer: I never take cases online for ethical reasons. If you require an attorney; you need to find one licensed to practice in your jurisdiction. Never take anything online as legal advice, because each case is different and one size does not fit all. Wants nothing at all to do with law.

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Max White

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Re: Chill and Relaxed Progressive Irritation and Annoyance Thread
« Reply #11166 on: February 12, 2012, 11:33:37 pm »

Don't live in a perfect world, remember.
It is easy to say what you would be in a calm situation like right now, but you don't know how you would act in a panic. In the perfect would you would be able to react calmly and clearly state your intentions and blah blah all that stuff that we all really should do, but in a panic situation things don't always work out.
Which is why learning to "switch off" (so to speak) in a high-stress situation and just act as needed without letting a flood of your thoughts get in the way is an important skill to learn at some point in your life.

Well if only everybody was able to do such a thing. Apparently, from somewhere earlier in the thread, the majority of people who own a gun for self defence have never even used it before. Do you think they will just 'switch off' and be able to think clearly?

~Snip
Holy crap that is a lot... Hold on, I will keep reading in a second, but do you really mean to tell me that you do or do not have the right to shoot somebody based on if you have a covered porch or not?
Seriously, the amount of shading you have is relevant to the moral choice of shooting a guy? And if the police can't be there in under an hour, don't cross your fingers for ambulance, so very potentially killing a guy?

MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Chill and Relaxed Progressive Irritation and Annoyance Thread
« Reply #11167 on: February 12, 2012, 11:37:52 pm »

Well if only everybody was able to do such a thing.
As you and I have quickly become fond of saying, "It isn't a perfect world". I contend that everybody can do such a thing. Operating calmly in a high stress situation is not a trait, it is a skill that can be learned. Like driving, or swimming, or brain surgery.
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Max White

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Re: Chill and Relaxed Progressive Irritation and Annoyance Thread
« Reply #11168 on: February 12, 2012, 11:39:24 pm »

And what about people who do not posses this skill? Like I said, most have never fired a gun, you expect them to be calm?
I understand you can learn to remain calm, but that doesn't mean everybody does.

Truean

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Re: Chill and Relaxed Progressive Irritation and Annoyance Thread
« Reply #11169 on: February 12, 2012, 11:42:37 pm »

~Snip
Holy crap that is a lot... Hold on, I will keep reading in a second, but do you really mean to tell me that you do or do not have the right to shoot somebody based on if you have a covered porch or not?
Seriously, the amount of shading you have is relevant to the moral choice of shooting a guy? And if the police can't be there in under an hour, don't cross your fingers for ambulance, so very potentially killing a guy?

Very simple, what's "in your residence" mean?" To be on the safe side, I'd try to actually be inside your own house.... The driveway doesn't count as "in your residence." So the question becomes literally where to draw the line. [shrugs]. It seems the driveway doesn't count, but the porch? I dunno.
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The kinda human wreckage that you love

Current Spare Time Fiction Project: (C) 2010 http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=63660.0
Disclaimer: I never take cases online for ethical reasons. If you require an attorney; you need to find one licensed to practice in your jurisdiction. Never take anything online as legal advice, because each case is different and one size does not fit all. Wants nothing at all to do with law.

Please don't quote me.

Vector

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Re: Chill and Relaxed Progressive Irritation and Annoyance Thread
« Reply #11170 on: February 12, 2012, 11:44:52 pm »

I'd be all for the mandatory "life skills" course we have over here in high school including trigger discipline, honestly.  If they're going to teach us how to bandage stab wounds and recognize seizures and so on, they might as well teach us how not to cause wounds by accident.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Chill and Relaxed Progressive Irritation and Annoyance Thread
« Reply #11171 on: February 12, 2012, 11:46:31 pm »

And what about people who do not posses this skill? Like I said, most have never fired a gun, you expect them to be calm?
I understand you can learn to remain calm, but that doesn't mean everybody does.
If you really want a solution, then I suppose you could make learning how to stay calm part of the requirements for being issued a firearm license.
~Snip
Holy crap that is a lot... Hold on, I will keep reading in a second, but do you really mean to tell me that you do or do not have the right to shoot somebody based on if you have a covered porch or not?
Seriously, the amount of shading you have is relevant to the moral choice of shooting a guy? And if the police can't be there in under an hour, don't cross your fingers for ambulance, so very potentially killing a guy?
Very simple, what's "in your residence" mean?" To be on the safe side, I'd try to actually be inside your own house.... The driveway doesn't count as "in your residence." So the question becomes literally where to draw the line. [shrugs]. It seems the driveway doesn't count, but the porch? I dunno.
Hypothetically, the defendant was returning home and the thief in question was just exiting the defendant's home as the defendant stepped onto the porch. The thief pulls out a knife, the defendant pulls out his gun and shoots him dead. What would you, if you were serving as legal council to the defendant, say to the jury on whether or not this counts as being in his residence?
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To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.
Quote
No Gods, No Masters.

Max White

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Re: Chill and Relaxed Progressive Irritation and Annoyance Thread
« Reply #11172 on: February 12, 2012, 11:48:34 pm »

There is a sex ed lesson at school, why not gun ed? Well, I don't mind that idea really. I don't mind people owning guns, I just think you should regulate the fuck out of them. Should write to my member of parliament about it, who ever the fuck he is...
Future site on my behalf... Or we really are going round in circles.

Anyway, how do you even teach somebody to remain calm in a panic situation? I'm assuming they can, as anybody in the army would have to, but what is required?
I don't think it would be possible in a one day lesson, so it would make getting your gun licence a lot tougher...

Vector

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Re: Chill and Relaxed Progressive Irritation and Annoyance Thread
« Reply #11173 on: February 12, 2012, 11:56:31 pm »

Oh, whoops--I forgot you'd said that.

Anyway, yeah, I think gun ed would be useful.  Specifically trigger discipline for older kids, though.  Little kids can just be told "don't touch it," like the kindergarten anti-drug lessons we got in LA.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Chill and Relaxed Progressive Irritation and Annoyance Thread
« Reply #11174 on: February 12, 2012, 11:57:31 pm »

Anyway, how do you even teach somebody to remain calm in a panic situation? I'm assuming they can, as anybody in the army would have to, but what is required?
Military, police force, firefighting, any kind of occupation that inevitably keeps you in an adrenaline saturated fight-or-flight state trains to eliminate panicking under pressure. The most simple way I can think of would be desensitization. Force people into that state (without actually putting them in danger) until they have enough experience with it that they can maintain their basic thought process while in it. Most people aren't in high-stress situations very often, so it's little surprise that many completely lose it when it finally happens.
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To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.
Quote
No Gods, No Masters.
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