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[Deadmeat1471]

I'll come out and say it.

The Constitution is nonsense.

It was designed to last throughout the ages, it can't. Yet people still believe it word for word, when they pick and choose what they believe in the bible. How can people follow the constitution written hundreds of years ago more closely than the bible written thousands of years ago.
It's absurd.
Right to guns should be scrapped, period. It serves no purpose in a modern society other than to increase gun crime. Here in britain we have gun crime, but very very little. Our regulation of weapons is arguably the best in the world, and it works.

*I think most of the constitution is good, its basic rights and laws we believe in. The right to guns however is a silly part in the modern world.

[Nadaka]

There is no such thing as gun crime. There is only crime. Wither you shoot someone, stab them, poison them or beat them to death does not matter.

[Deadmeat1471]

Per capita murder rates(per million people):

USA 4.8

UK 1.2

Major difference to most of the top countrys with murder? poor gun regulation.

[Nadaka]

Per capita murder rates(per million people):

USA 4.8

UK 1.2

Major difference to most of the top countrys with murder? poor gun regulation.

Problem! The parts of the US with the lowest rates of crime are also those with the highest per capita gun ownership.

[Deadmeat1471]

Per capita murder rates(per million people):

USA 4.8

UK 1.2

Major difference to most of the top countrys with murder? poor gun regulation.

Problem! The parts of the US with the lowest rates of crime are also those with the highest per capita gun ownership.

Id imagine thats due to vigilante justice superceding the proper and fair rule of law, thats nothing at all to be proud of.
Guns dont prevent crime, guns in the constitution arent intended to prevent crime. Thus this argument is irrelivant in any case.

[Frumple]

How can people follow the constitution written hundreds of years ago more closely than the bible written thousands of years ago.

I... what? How can one not follow something merely a couple centuries out of date more closely than something a couple millennium out of date? That seems like, yanno', sense.

Yet people still believe it word for word, when they pick and choose what they believe in the bible.

That...  yes, people pick and choose from the constitution. You can see it in places like the 4th amendment violations that are written into law along borders, among dozens and dozens of other things. The constitution gets interpreted and selectively applied just as much as biblical text does. Most of the fundamentalist constitutionalist are as batshit insane as the fundamentalist christians.

It serves no purpose in a modern society other than to increase gun crime. Here in britain we have gun crime, but very very little. Our regulation of weapons is arguably the best in the world, and it works.

Most of the american population disagrees with that first bit. The second is definite and repeatedly proven, but the american majority believes, currently, that gun ownership is worth that cost.

As for the american constitution itself, its got good bits, its got bad bits. Same as every other political document in existence. It's got a lot of pretty solid stuff to it, which definitely doesn't mean that it's "Nonsense."

Id imagine thats due to vigilante justice superceding the proper and fair rule of law, thats nothing at all to be proud of.

Imagining doesn't cut it. They do actually have studies and so forth about that sort of thing. Vigilante justice isn't very common (by which I mean g'damn rare) in the US.

E response to your E: Yes, guns do prevent some crime. Deterrent and self defense is a thing that actually happens. The argument is not irrelevant -- possibly insufficient, but definitely relevant.

[Loud Whispers]

Right to guns should be scrapped, period. It serves no purpose in a modern society other than to increase gun crime. Here in britain we have gun crime, but very very little. Our regulation of weapons is arguably the best in the world, and it works.

Yeah!

We have knife crime >_>

[Deadmeat1471]

How can people follow the constitution written hundreds of years ago more closely than the bible written thousands of years ago.

I... what? How can one not follow something merely a couple centuries out of date more closely than something a couple millennium out of date? That seems like, yanno', sense.

Yet people still believe it word for word, when they pick and choose what they believe in the bible.

That...  yes, people pick and choose from the constitution. You can see it in places like the 4th amendment violations that are written into law along borders, among dozens and dozens of other things. The constitution gets interpreted and selectively applied just as much as biblical text does. Most of the fundamentalist constitutionalist are as batshit insane as the fundamentalist christians.

It serves no purpose in a modern society other than to increase gun crime. Here in britain we have gun crime, but very very little. Our regulation of weapons is arguably the best in the world, and it works.

Most of the american population disagrees with that first bit. The second is definite and repeatedly proven, but the american majority believes, currently, that gun ownership is worth that cost.

As for the american constitution itself, its got good bits, its got bad bits. Same as every other political document in existence. It's got a lot of pretty solid stuff to it, which definitely doesn't mean that it's "Nonsense."

Id imagine thats due to vigilante justice superceding the proper and fair rule of law, thats nothing at all to be proud of.

Imagining doesn't cut it. They do actually have studies and so forth about that sort of thing. Vigilante justice isn't very common (by which I mean g'damn rare) in the US.

Good points, as for the bible bit, I meant that in one of the most religious countrys in the world people follow the rule of a bunch of aristocrats over the rule of god.
This I find amusing.
Note, i'm an athiest so I prefer to follow the rule of reason above the previous contenders.

For the constitution, I meant that treating it as a document where you should follow its rules for all time without reason other than it is written on this here bit of paper, is absolute nonsense. Few other countrys do this as rabidly as the Americans, few others pay for it so dearly.

[Loud Whispers]

Would you really want America to look like a massive version of Spain 5 centuries ago?

With the worlds largest army?

[Nadaka]

Per capita murder rates(per million people):

USA 4.8

UK 1.2

Major difference to most of the top countrys with murder? poor gun regulation.

Problem! The parts of the US with the lowest rates of crime are also those with the highest per capita gun ownership.

Id imagine thats due to vigilante justice superceding the proper and fair rule of law, thats nothing at all to be proud of.

You would imagine wrongly. Vigilante justice is incredibly rare. It may be due to people having enough familiarity with firearms that they know just how easily and effectively someone could defend themselves against trespass.

Besides that the idea that the right to bear arms has no merit completely fails to account for:

1: hunting.

2: self defense against criminals. The job of the police is not to PREVENT crime. Only to apprehend criminals after the fact.

3: defense against tyranny. Like it or not, governments are far from perfect and they are ever moving towards authoritarian tyranny. The authority of a government is derived from its people, and the final line of defense against a government that exceeds that contract is the forceful dissent of the people. See 2, when criminals pass laws, the law becomes crime.

[Deadmeat1471]

Per capita murder rates(per million people):

USA 4.8

UK 1.2

Major difference to most of the top countrys with murder? poor gun regulation.

Problem! The parts of the US with the lowest rates of crime are also those with the highest per capita gun ownership.

Id imagine thats due to vigilante justice superceding the proper and fair rule of law, thats nothing at all to be proud of.

You would imagine wrongly. Vigilante justice is incredibly rare. It may be due to people having enough familiarity with firearms that they know just how easily and effectively someone could defend themselves against trespass.

Besides that the idea that the right to bear arms has no merit completely fails to account for:

1: hunting.

2: self defense against criminals. The job of the police is not to PREVENT crime. Only to apprehend criminals after the fact.

3: defense against tyranny. Like it or not, governments are far from perfect and they are ever moving towards authoritarian tyranny. The authority of a government is derived from its people, and the final line of defense against a government that exceeds that contract is the forceful dissent of the people. See 2, when criminals pass laws, the law becomes crime.

Hunting? are you serious? as a reason for a country to be allowed to maintain civilian weapons stockpiles? hilarious.

Self defence doesnt need a gun if the gun regulations are good. In britain few robberys are done with guns, because theyre hard to get and they don't help a great deal in such close quarters.

I've already refuted this ludicrus argument that a colt 45 can defeat reactive armor. It's a retarded argument, and has been so for around 100 years now.

[Frumple]

Good points, as for the bible bit, I meant that in one of the most religious countrys in the world people follow the rule of a bunch of aristocrats over the rule of god.
This I find amusing.

America's one of the loudest first world countries on the subject of religion, yes, but it doesn't play nearly as much of a role in the political process as the people shouting on TV would have you think. Most american "Christians" are sunday christians, there for a day and a few rituals here and there while having very little impact on actual day-to-day happenings.

Plus that whole separation of church and state thing. Most of the people we (As in the actual american majority) actually take seriously are pretty consistent about that. Might be trending toward a bit of change, there, but it's been fairly solid over the years.

Hunting? are you serious? as a reason for a country to be allowed to maintain civilian weapons stockpiles? hilarious.

Yeah, unlike Britain (If we're going to be subtly slinging national mud, here), America actually has a lot of land and a significant hunting population. A lot of the steady opposition to gun control does, in fact, come from the significant amount of hunters we've got.

Now mind, it's a seasonal thing, but yes, that is one of the reasons people currently defend gun ownership. A lot of people hunt.

[EveryZig]

The Constitution is nonsense.

It was designed to last throughout the ages, it can't. Yet people still believe it word for word, when they pick and choose what they believe in the bible. How can people follow the constitution written hundreds of years ago more closely than the bible written thousands of years ago.
It's absurd.

You forget the vital distinction between the constitution and religious texts.
The constitution was never intended to be seen as infallible, actually has built-in provisions for people to change it as circumstances change via amendments. That system has its problems, but it is far from what you are portraying it as (though some people in the U.S. do view it that way).
Religions do do a similar thing in practice, but that involves ignoring or 'creatively interpreting' parts of their texts and often leads to trouble between interpretations.

[Deadmeat1471]

Good points, as for the bible bit, I meant that in one of the most religious countrys in the world people follow the rule of a bunch of aristocrats over the rule of god.
This I find amusing.

America's one of the loudest first world countries on the subject of religion, yes, but it doesn't play nearly as much of a role in the political process as the people shouting on TV would have you think. Most american "Christians" are sunday christians, there for a day and a few rituals here and there while having very little impact on actual day-to-day happenings.

Plus that whole separation of church and state thing. Most of the people we (As in the actual american majority) actually take seriously are pretty consistent about that. Might be trending toward a bit of change, there, but it's been fairly solid over the years.

Hunting? are you serious? as a reason for a country to be allowed to maintain civilian weapons stockpiles? hilarious.

Yeah, unlike Britain (If we're going to be subtly slinging national mud, here), America actually has a lot of land and a significant hunting population. A lot of the steady opposition to gun control does, in fact, come from the significant amount of hunters we've got.

Now mind, it's a seasonal thing, but yes, that is one of the reasons people currently defend gun ownership. A lot of people hunt.

Hunting is a 'sport' not a necessity, it should be made illegal in the US as it should be made illegal here. It has absolutely no merit in a discussion about gun control.

[Nadaka]

edited to remove quote pyramid....

Hunting? are you serious? as a reason for a country to be allowed to maintain civilian weapons stockpiles? hilarious.

Yes hunting. It is a necessity of life for the very poor rural population and considering the depopulation of natural predators, it is necessary to keep prey species in balance.

Self defence doesnt need a gun if the gun regulations are good. In britain few robberys are done with guns, because theyre hard to get and they don't help a great deal in such close quarters.

What? You can not possibly be more wrong. Again you have this completely irrational focus on the irrational concept of "gun crime". Robberies, assault, murder and rape happen with or without guns, and even in America they happen without guns more often than with. Guns are an equalizer, a small 90 lb person can not effectively defend herself against a group larger stronger attackers without such an equalizer.

I've already refuted this ludicrus argument that a colt 45 can defeat reactive armor. It's a retarded argument, and has been so for around 100 years now.

And what the hell is this about?