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[MetalSlimeHunt]

And you think men rape women because they have never been told it was wrong? Rapists are not ignorant monsters, they're upstanding, apparently moral men who know damn well what they're doing and are too callous to care.

Virex, there is almost always an underlying cause to human behavior, positive or negative. If someone becomes a rapist, there is a reason behind it. What that is varies greatly, but there is a reason. People do not develop desire and motive to commit an action from nothing. 

[Montague]

And you think men rape women because they have never been told it was wrong? Rapists are not ignorant monsters, they're upstanding, apparently moral men who know damn well what they're doing and are too callous to care.

Virex, there is almost always an underlying cause to human behavior, positive or negative. If someone becomes a rapist, there is a reason behind it. What that is varies greatly, but there is a reason. People do not develop desire and motive to commit an action from nothing.

Rape, like a lot of other shitty things people do is basically a result of evolutionary adaptation. All evolution cares about is reproduction and anything that once furthered that ends results in what we are today. It's a maladaptive behavior in modern society thats a concequence of a brain and instict optimized for the stone ages.

The reasons criminals rape and do all these other shitty things, is a lack of impulse control and an inability to learn from past mistakes. In these cases, there is no "reason" because there isn't any reasoning behind it. It's done on a compulsion, instinct, impulse, whatever, that they lack the ability to control. What seperates them from the majority is that most people don't even have the urge to, but people that do and lack the self-control (or at least the fear of the concequences) might end up doing it. It doesn't matter if they 'know' its wrong, they do it anyways because psychopaths cannot learn from their past mistakes or even other people's mistakes. They literally do whatever they feel like at the moment.



Also sort of on the topic, you have to be careful about statistics about sexual assault. A lot of the surveyors consider any sexual action taken while intoxicated to be rape. Or any sex done after a lot of nagging and persuading. Sexual assault also includes things that simply involve dodgy technical, legal definitions of consent. Not to say anything about the morality of that or whatever, but it isn't as bad as '25% of women has been violently raped' like people might conflate from looking at the statistics without understanding the context with which they were defined and gathered.

[Nadaka]

You got any other hints to add?

Don't forget the concealed weapons permit; for the knife and the small holdout (or large fuckoff) pistol you should have sequestered somewhere. They're absolutely sickeningly easy to get (at least in Florida) if you can afford the processing fee. Gun's not legal to have on college campuses, but then again neither are knives.

Incidentally, apparently paranoia and fear of (non-sexual, though rape's an issue for guys, too*) assault can lead to a person picking up most of those without direct instruction. The key thing is interesting, though. Definitely wish someone would have bothered to actually teach any of that to th'male half of the gender. Regardless of the social implications of needing the information or the blaming the victim (utter) bullshit, the lot of it's good self defense advice.

I'm trying to not even consider the psychological effect of considering everyone around you as potential threats, though, especially if it's genuinely endemic to the female side of our culture.

*Not nearly as much -- everyone here knows that the sexual assault numbers against women in the states is fucking disgusting and that we, as a society, should be goddamned ashamed -- and generally limited to more specific areas (prison, particularly), but it's still there.

What is "sickeningly easy" in regards to getting a concealed carry permit in Florida? It requires that you legally own a concealable weapon and take a 4 hour training course in addition to a small fee. That training course is what allows more than half the states in the US to recognize the CCW permit because it is more stringent than many other states. And why is it sickening? Responsible ownership and use of a weapon is a right and protected civil liberty and not at all at odds with being progressive or liberal.

[Montague]

CCW permits are easy to apply for in Florida but expect to wait a minimum of 3 months before they get approved. Government downsizing, I think there must be 2 or 3 people in the whole state responsible for processing them now.

You can carry pepper spray, or bear spray, without any permit and it's much more effective then a knife or baton or something for self-defense.

 Honestly carrying a gun might be overkill unless you absolutely need one. Carrying a gun around is a pain in the ass, they are heavy and bulky and must be concealed well and accessible in an emergency. You can't go into certain places carrying it and you have to account for what you are wearing and how you are carrying it everywhere you go. Don't bend over to pick something up and have it fall out of your holster at the grocery store or whatever. The legal ramifactions of using or carrying or showing a badguy the damn thing (brandishing) can get you into serious legal trouble too.

But hey, it's a free country and that's just my personal prefence.

[palsch]

One of the best recent pieces I've seen on this topic; Why Your Well-Intentioned Advice Was Called 'Victim-Blaming'.

[Pnx]

The trouble I have with the whole, "people should have guns for self defence" is that a lot of nice people don't want to own a gun, or even touch something purely designed to wound, maim, and end people's lives very easily. Whereas there are plenty of not so nice people that do very much want to own a gun.

Easy access to guns means a lot more of those bad people get guns, but relatively few of the good people do.

[Tellemurius]

You got any other hints to add?

Don't forget the concealed weapons permit; for the knife and the small holdout (or large fuckoff) pistol you should have sequestered somewhere. They're absolutely sickeningly easy to get (at least in Florida) if you can afford the processing fee. Gun's not legal to have on college campuses, but then again neither are knives.

Incidentally, apparently paranoia and fear of (non-sexual, though rape's an issue for guys, too*) assault can lead to a person picking up most of those without direct instruction. The key thing is interesting, though. Definitely wish someone would have bothered to actually teach any of that to th'male half of the gender. Regardless of the social implications of needing the information or the blaming the victim (utter) bullshit, the lot of it's good self defense advice.

I'm trying to not even consider the psychological effect of considering everyone around you as potential threats, though, especially if it's genuinely endemic to the female side of our culture.

*Not nearly as much -- everyone here knows that the sexual assault numbers against women in the states is fucking disgusting and that we, as a society, should be goddamned ashamed -- and generally limited to more specific areas (prison, particularly), but it's still there.

What is "sickeningly easy" in regards to getting a concealed carry permit in Florida? It requires that you legally own a concealable weapon and take a 4 hour training course in addition to a small fee. That training course is what allows more than half the states in the US to recognize the CCW permit because it is more stringent than many other states. And why is it sickening? Responsible ownership and use of a weapon is a right and protected civil liberty and not at all at odds with being progressive or liberal.

I wouldn't say its a protected right, more like you can have it and no one should give another fuck. As for CCw permits, by all means give us the classes, make us prove we can be a responsible citizen.

[Frumple]

What is "sickeningly easy" in regards to getting a concealed carry permit in Florida? It requires that you legally own a concealable weapon and take a 4 hour training course in addition to a small fee. That training course is what allows more than half the states in the US to recognize the CCW permit because it is more stringent than many other states. And why is it sickening?

Question: Have you actually been in one of those courses? I have. There was a short lecture most fifth graders (or younger) could pay attention through. The knowledge check aspect of it was literally "answer true to 10 or so true/false questions." Then you fired one round into a target. That was it. You can now send in the paperwork and get a CCW permit.

There was nothing involved that would actually vet a person as being capable of responsible gun use. All the background check involves is checking for felonies or diagnosed mental illness -- note, they don't actually check that second bit, just whether you admit to it. And all this is in an area were drug abuse and domestic violence is rampant. Hint: There was precisely one woman (my mother) in the class of about 10-15.

I call it sickeningly easy because it is sickeningly easy. The permit itself is not sickening, it's the ease of access.

[Montague]

The trouble I have with the whole, "people should have guns for self defence" is that a lot of nice people don't want to own a gun, or even touch something purely designed to wound, maim, and end people's lives very easily. Whereas there are plenty of not so nice people that do very much want to own a gun.

Easy access to guns means a lot more of those bad people get guns, but relatively few of the good people do.

Err, no. Try buying a gun if you are a felon or have a criminal history or domestic abuse or history of drug use. It's not easy by any means. I'm certain more good people have guns then bad people. You say guns are used to kill people, I say they are used to protect people. Being a good person doesn't mean you have to be naive or pacisfistic. Some good people value their lives and the lives of others and would very much like to own a gun to further that ends.

[Frumple]

You say guns are used to kill people, I say they are used to protect people.

It's both, Mont. Guns kill, period -- that's what they're designed to do. You can kill to protect, but that doesn't make it less killing.

The good person does not want to kill, period. If killing becomes necessary, something has gone wrong. There is no good aspect to, just bad and less bad -- and perhaps not bad, when the killing prevents bad. That's still not good, just not bad.

E: And to clarify, I understand completely your position; I'm pro-gun ownership, pro-death penalty (in certain cases), etc., so forth. I just like to call a horse a horse -- there can be no good killing, only necessary (which isn't necessarily bad, but is also necessarily not good) and unnecessary killing (which is always bad).

[Montague]

You say guns are used to kill people, I say they are used to protect people.

It's both, Mont. Guns kill, period -- that's what they're designed to do. You can kill to protect, but that doesn't make it less killing.

The good person does not want to kill, period. If killing becomes necessary, something has gone wrong. There is no good aspect to, just bad and less bad -- and perhaps not bad, when the killing prevents bad. That's still not good, just not bad.

So if it prevents a bad situation from being worse, thats good, right? You shoot one person to save the lives of half a dozen people. A terrible situation became a less terrible situation.

A gun is just an object, a tool. The utility of a tool is entirely reliant on the person using it. A gun is used for more then killing people. Most people buy guns without any intention of ever killing anybody. You can also use a gun as a deterrant to violence. People understand the threat it represents and might be dissuaded to visit you harm if they know you have one. That's why lots of criminals are arrested rather then killed. In this case, it would be good to have a gun, because it might actually prevent violence from being used in the first place.

[Frumple]

So if it prevents a bad situation from being worse, thats good, right? You shoot one person to save the lives of half a dozen people. A terrible situation became a less terrible situation.

No, it's not good. An act that is bad cannot become good when it prevents a greater bad act. Necessary, sure, Better than it could have been, definitely. Still a bad act. Killing is bad, period. Its usage can become amoral, but not moral.

And yes, deterrence and so forth. The threat of killing. Again, I'm for gun ownership and what it entails, but that does not lessen or somehow mitigate that the purpose and design for a gun is to kill. That's what they're intended to do. There is a difference between a tool and a killing tool. Guns are a tool for killing. The closest to a good thing they come to is hunting aids.

Basically, there is a difference between good and better, yanno'? The benefit of firearms lies firmly in the latter. It's a disservice to the gravity and responsibility of gun use to hold otherwise, in my opinion.

... it's still way too easy to get a concealed weapons permit, though.

[Pnx]

The trouble I have with the whole, "people should have guns for self defence" is that a lot of nice people don't want to own a gun, or even touch something purely designed to wound, maim, and end people's lives very easily. Whereas there are plenty of not so nice people that do very much want to own a gun.

Easy access to guns means a lot more of those bad people get guns, but relatively few of the good people do.

Err, no. Try buying a gun if you are a felon or have a criminal history or domestic abuse or history of drug use. It's not easy by any means. I'm certain more good people have guns then bad people. You say guns are used to kill people, I say they are used to protect people. Being a good person doesn't mean you have to be naive or pacisfistic. Some good people value their lives and the lives of others and would very much like to own a gun to further that ends.

A. Not having a record that prevents you from getting a gun doesn't make you a good person.
B. Most illegal guns are purchased legally, or come into the country legally. Very few of the guns that get used in crimes are smuggled into the country. Most of the time these guns are purchased by someone who can get one legally, then given to someone who can't, this is called a straw purchase. It's impossible to make guns legally available to some people without making it easier for all people to get guns.

If you banned guns from the general populace I guarantee you will see fewer guns used for crimes.

[Sheb]

Yup, Nadaka, the evidence is'nt on your side. Countries with more guns tend to have more gun violence. And since gun are so good at killing, more mansloughter/murder as well.

Sure, there is plenty of specific case where a gun can help you, and generally owning a gun make you safer, but it makes society as a whole more dangerous, as more people have the mean to kill easily.

[Montague]

A. Not having a record that prevents you from getting a gun doesn't make you a good person.
B. Most illegal guns are purchased legally, or come into the country legally. Very few of the guns that get used in crimes are smuggled into the country. Most of the time these guns are purchased by someone who can get one legally, then given to someone who can't, this is called a straw purchase. It's impossible to make guns legally available to some people without making it easier for all people to get guns.

If you banned guns from the general populace I guarantee you will see fewer guns used for crimes.

A. People are innocent untill proven guilty. I'd agree that the screening and vetting process could be a little tighter then it is now, but the fact is, the vast majority of people are sane and responsible enough to own a firearm. This is a free country, they have to assume a person isn't a psychopath or criminal unless they demonstrate otherwise.

B. There are certainly work arounds for a person to obtain a weapon illegally. There would probably be justification in a law that restricts or scrutizes an average person buying an unusual number of weapons to crack down on straw purchasing, but really the threat is overstated. Like the adage goes, if guns are outlawed, only outlaws would have guns. Just because something can be abused by criminals doesn't mean they should be kept from law abiding citizens.

If you banned guns from the general populace you might see fewer guns used for crimes 50 years down the road, but you'd certainly see an increase in violence and crime overall even then and an increase in gun violence in the short term. Plenty of examples of countries with strict gunlaws that have plenty of violent crime.

So if it prevents a bad situation from being worse, thats good, right? You shoot one person to save the lives of half a dozen people. A terrible situation became a less terrible situation.

No, it's not good. An act that is bad cannot become good when it prevents a greater bad act. Necessary, sure, Better than it could have been, definitely. Still a bad act. Killing is bad, period. Its usage can become amoral, but not moral.

And yes, deterrence and so forth. The threat of killing. Again, I'm for gun ownership and what it entails, but that does not lessen or somehow mitigate that the purpose and design for a gun is to kill. That's what they're intended to do. There is a difference between a tool and a killing tool. Guns are a tool for killing. The closest to a good thing they come to is hunting aids.

Basically, there is a difference between good and better, yanno'? The benefit of firearms lies firmly in the latter. It's a disservice to the gravity and responsibility of gun use to hold otherwise, in my opinion.

... it's still way too easy to get a concealed weapons permit, though.

I'd point out again that the vast majority of people do not buy guns for the purpose of killing anybody or even for self-defense. The most popular type of firearm Americans own and purchase are .22lr. They can be lethal, certainly, but you can hardly point to a youth model bolt action 22lr and claim it was designed for killing people. It was designed for target shooting and plinking, which is what most people do with them and where the mass market for firearms lies.

This argument I admit is probably irrelevant because handguns and whatnot are in fact designed to be lethal. (Designed for self-defense, I should say) Handguns from the perspective of shooting sports are boring, simplistic, innaccurate and lack the utility for much of anything besides concealed carry and self-defense.

That said, people have the right to self-defense. A human right, I'd assert. Owning and carrying a handgun isn't a choice to be taken lightly and I agree there should be better training to emphasis the gravity of the responsibility inheriant in carrying one. I don't carry one myself for a variety of reasons, but I think it's misguided to deny a responsible person the right to do so if they so chose.

Concealed carry permits are not sought after by criminals. Criminals don't go through legal and official channels if they want to hide a gun in their waistband, they just go and do it. I agree that the training for concealed carry permits might be a little more stringent, to make sure the applicant is indeed responsible and they should understand the legal ramifications and degree of responsibility, but making it excessively difficult for an otherwise law-abiding person to obtain one doesn't serve any purpose but to deny people their right to self-defense.